Young Widow Forum

Socializing => Relationships/Remarriage => Topic started by: daysofelijah on June 21, 2017, 08:32:24 AM

Title: Drawing the line with the x?
Post by: daysofelijah on June 21, 2017, 08:32:24 AM
Since I've moved and we got engaged it seems as though NG's x has stepped up her communication with him. Some of it's about their kids which I am completely okay with. She suddenly decided to quit her job and is not going to work, so they have to figure out insurance for the kids.

NG is also in the beginning stages of cleaning out his place to eventually move to my place. Now she is starting to request lots of things from the house (that was theirs, but he took over the house in the divorce). Things like raspberry bushes, bird bath, flower barrels, etc. NG gives in to some stuff, and some stuff says I want it for our new house.

Then last night while we were out to dinner she starts texting him asking him to fix something on her car for her. This ended in a huge fight between him and I. I told him no, that was something he should not be doing. He says he is just trying to keep the peace for the kids. He is also the kind of guy that has a hard time saying no to anyone who asks for a favor. So after my big blow up he made an excuse to her about his air compressor not working so he couldn't do it. Learning how she is, I know there will be more requests for favors in the future though.

I've never dealt with the x before. All their communication is by text. I only saw her once or twice in passing at their house (when she was getting more stuff). They've been divorced for 5-6 years now so it's not like it's recent.

Ugh, learning how to deal with this stuff and not overreact is hard. I don't want to end up being the bitchy new wife, but I also want to make my boundaries about what is okay clear now, before we get married.
Title: Re: Drawing the line with the x?
Post by: arneal on June 21, 2017, 09:12:43 AM
So been there! LH and his ex were legally separated when we met and eventually moved in together. I think I was finally a real threat; he had dated and lived with other women during all the years they were apart (he admitted that the reason there had been no divorce was he wanted her to cough up half the cost since their being apart was because of her in the first place). Before his health got really too bad to keep it up, he taught an African Dance class. She and his daughter danced. I tried it and it made me cry because I am so not coordinated enough; the only reason I did it was to be in class too. However, I got over myself :) She would come to class in these tight leggings and fawn all over him; he would look at her and be like, What are you doing? I didn't say a word and he told me that she had was acting like that because she knew he was happy and was trying to cause problems. From that conversation on, I ignored her. They finally got divorced and as soon as the paperwork came through that it was final, he and I were 'engaged' (we had lived together for about four years by then); of course she got angry when she found out (daughter told her that her dad had given me a ring; actually, he told me to buy the ring I wanted since he had no clue about what I might like as I have strange and always changing tastes lol) -- called him up and asked him if he couldn't wait until the ink was dry on the divorce. He told her that it should even be a thing since they had been legally separated for like 12 or 13 years or something. After he died, she was suddenly like a sister-wife or something, telling me that she loves me and all this.  ::) Even now if LH's daughter calls me she's often in the background, saying that she's here for me if I need someone to talk to. As if. I keep it kind because in her own wacky way, she loved him as well. She is the mother of his only child. She carries his last name. But we ain't gonna be best buddies.

The difference here is that LH stood up to her. If there is a way that your NG can come to an understanding that he is allowing her to use the children as weapons, that being nice to her is not going to change that, maybe it will be ugly for a minute but then life goes on. It is a tough place to be in. My NG is estranged from his eldest daughter (24? 25?) because the mom did a great job of brainwashing her into thinking he was the worst person on the planet. His youngest (23?) navigates them both and lives with him. They have a decent relationship. But the eldest won't come around at all, having swallowed all the crap that was fed to her. Yes, it's tough to accept, but the kids are their own people. If he keeps steady, doesn't talk bad or treat their mom bad but creates and maintains boundaries, they will see it. They may not accept it, they may fully accept it. There is no telling. But giving in to her? That doesn't help them. It keeps the ex in a place of power.
Title: Re: Drawing the line with the x?
Post by: daysofelijah on June 21, 2017, 09:44:03 AM
Thanks for sharing your experience Arneal. You made good points. NG thinks that this is all about trust and that I don't trust him to make good choices with other women. But it's not really that. There's so much more to it. I don't want her to have a part of our lives other than the necessary part as the mother of his kids. And his kids are 17 and 19, so it's not like they should need to be in any sort of constant contact.

She's manipulative and knows how to get what she wants. And I'm afraid if she wants to still have a place of power in his life, she will do her best to get it. That's why I want him to stand up now and put up the boundaries that need to be in place for me to feel secure and respected.

Unfortunately I blew up and it ended up taking a whole direction I didn't want to go in. Everything seems okay this morning, we had our usual morning texts and chats before his work. But I think we need to talk again tonight more calmly about it.
Title: Re: Drawing the line with the x?
Post by: arneal on June 21, 2017, 09:49:11 AM
{{{hugs}}} Yes, open communication will be key in this situation. Feel free to share my story or parts of it if it might help. You could always start off with 'I know this woman whose former husband's ex ...' so as not to get too deep in where you got the story ;)
Title: Re: Drawing the line with the x?
Post by: Portside on June 21, 2017, 09:51:55 AM

Ugh, learning how to deal with this stuff and not overreact is hard. I don't want to end up being the bitchy new wife, but I also want to make my boundaries about what is okay clear now, before we get married.

Yeah, it is hard. But, try to look at it from his viewpoint (as he should also look at it from yours) too. After yesterday's blow up, I'll bet he feels he has two cranky women to deal with. Not just one. And one of them (that's you :) ) is supposed to help him navigate all the ups and downs, the betters and for worsts.

Peeing in the corners to mark out territory and boundaries will only work if you include him in the decision process and not establish it by edict. If you do not, you will be a very unhappy woman sooner or later.

Here's the thing - all of you are navigating new territory - even the ex. Try to take a step back and help him work out a scheme that everyone can live with without a hassle.  I'm not saying roll over and give in to everything. Simply try to find common ground when it presents itself and be as reasonable as you can when it doesn't.

The kids always get caught in no-mans-land in a war. I'm sure you don't want that.

Good luck - Mike
Title: Re: Drawing the line with the x?
Post by: Trying on June 21, 2017, 10:16:43 AM
Dealing with an ex is a whole new thing for me too and I find it very difficult even if the reasons are different than yours. I'm learning how complicated divorce is and that rational and logical behavior is not a given.  When I get judgemental or too opinionated on how he should be handling things with his ex it doesn't end well.  He gets more than enough grief from her and doesn't need me adding to it.  Having someone you love still involved in a dysfunctional relationship that you have to keep your nose out of is not easy.
Title: Re: Drawing the line with the x?
Post by: Metv on June 21, 2017, 10:32:48 AM
Exes suck.
Title: Re: Drawing the line with the x?
Post by: Sugarbell on June 21, 2017, 10:42:00 AM
Crazy ex's suck donkey balls.

My late husband had a theory...When we started dating..after a few months ex girlfriends started trying to talk, etc to him. He said "Suddenly the guy is more attractive to them when he's with a hot intelligent woman". They feel threatened and want what they lost...it's primitive human biology"

So take it as a compliment....she's feeling insecure about you and him getting married. I've learned to totally ignore my guys ex. Seriously I keep my nose in the air and never bad mouth her to anyone publicly. It's like she doesn't exist or is so insignificant it's not worth wasting my breath. I'm this way to new guy too now...we don't discuss her it's always brief and to the point only about their kids (drop offs, vacation, etc)
Title: Re: Drawing the line with the x?
Post by: Metv on June 21, 2017, 10:44:41 AM
I don't agree w the make peace w the ex stuff.
It never works. Kid stuff fine. Everything else, nope.
Title: Re: Drawing the line with the x?
Post by: arneal on June 21, 2017, 10:46:23 AM
Yes, Sugarbell! Not that anyone would ever label me as hot, but intelligent, certainly  :D But yes, this is similar to what my LH was getting at. His ex was feeling some type of way about what she'd lost. In recent years, she'd even told their daughter that no one had ever treated her like LH did. She's never remarried or held a long-term relationship from what I understand since they broke up.
Title: Re: Drawing the line with the x?
Post by: Sugarbell on June 21, 2017, 10:57:21 AM
Right...if he's with a complete dud...the exs aren't as threatened. He's less appealing. It's what the ex perceives you as...NGs ex is still a crazy pain in the ass...but now I just pity her.

Title: Re: Drawing the line with the x?
Post by: calimom on June 21, 2017, 11:37:38 AM
If you want to engage and fight with this woman over things like car repair and birdbaths, it's absolutely your choice. She may be someone who likes to push buttons and if she realizes her requests and actions bother you, she'll likely continue. She may move on to other things if she finds you don't react. And if your fiancee helps her with her car or gives her a raspberry bush, is it such a terrible thing?

I have two ex-wives in my life: my late husband's first wife. They had horrible issues mostly centered around their young child (who I was awarded custody of after his death if that gives you some idea). I'm still in touch with her today, but only at a distance. My long time gentleman friend had a "good" divorce and a pleasant ex. They too have older kids and some financial dealings. He recently drove her to an airport 200 miles away to catch an international flight, and it didn't bother me - mostly because it didn't concern me.

If you want to have a hate fest with this woman which will only result in continued stress, it's your call. My advise is to pull back, be friendly and polite in your limited dealings with her. Be Switzerland! Wishing you the best.

And one other thing - he shouldn't be involved in lots of petty texting back and forth with anyone while out with you. That's just plain rude.
Title: Re: Drawing the line with the x?
Post by: arneal on June 21, 2017, 12:02:06 PM
Well said, calimom -- Switzerland! While there are some points that should be clear (where's the line), for the most part, being out of it is best. I talked with LH and didn't engage with the ex at all during our living together and married years. I spoke civilly when we'd go to her house to take prom pictures of the daughter but stayed in the background. When LH's dad died, the ex wanted to ride in the family car to the funeral. We weren't married then so I drove myself to the church and greeted family and friends who arrived before the 'family'; however, when it was time to process in, LH and I walked together, while his daughter and ex walked in together. Learning to navigate this thing isn't easy, but it can be done with dignity.
Title: Re: Drawing the line with the x?
Post by: jgib on June 21, 2017, 04:17:47 PM
I believe if there are boundaries or lines to be drawn it is his responsibility to do so.
He is the one that has a relationship with her and he chooses how to handle it.  Don't let that taint your relationship with him....
Title: Re: Drawing the line with the x?
Post by: Metv on June 21, 2017, 07:10:18 PM
If it bothers you and there seems to be a lack of trust, my call is to take a good look at the future. If it bothers me, I speak up. Huge difference between communicating about the kids, and working on her car. Ok fix said car, it shouldn't involve 19 texts and replies. If it involves multi texting I would take it as he's not ready to let go. Still don't agree with what others write about having it not concern you. It already does.
Title: Re: Drawing the line with the x?
Post by: Sugarbell on June 22, 2017, 01:05:35 PM
My guy friend would get crazy texts from psycho ex when we first started going out.

He never responded..unless it was kid drop off/schedule stuff he ignored her. Some were just ridiculous.

After a while she stopped....because she never got a response.

He's in the drivers seat as far as handling his ex.
Title: Re: Drawing the line with the x?
Post by: MrsDan on June 23, 2017, 12:42:54 PM

Yeah, it is hard. But, try to look at it from his viewpoint (as he should also look at it from yours) too. After yesterday's blow up, I'll bet he feels he has two cranky women to deal with.

This absolutely hands down one of the most offensive things you've ever posted here, and that's saying a lot. Advocating for your emotional needs and what you think will ensure a healthy relationship is not being cranky. Honestly, it's pretty pathetic to use a grief group as a vehicle for vocalizing an obvious disdain for women. 

If there is a way that your NG can come to an understanding that he is allowing her to use the children as weapons, that being nice to her is not going to change that, maybe it will be ugly for a minute but then life goes on. It is a tough place to be in.

This hits it; she is using the kids to get to him, and he is encouraging that bad behavior. And anyone who would use their kids as weapons is seriously messed up and is not going to change. I find it interesting that he says he has trouble saying no to people; he certainly has no trouble saying no to daysofelijah, when she is expressing her needs. The relationship with the ex is over. There is no need for him to have any involvement with her that doesn't directly involve her kids.
Title: Re: Drawing the line with the x?
Post by: Portside on June 23, 2017, 01:34:37 PM


Yeah, it is hard. But, try to look at it from his viewpoint (as he should also look at it from yours) too. After yesterday's blow up, I'll bet he feels he has two cranky women to deal with.

This absolutely hands down one of the most offensive things you've ever posted here, and that's saying a lot. Advocating for your emotional needs and what you think will ensure a healthy relationship is not being cranky. Honestly, it's pretty pathetic to use a grief group as a vehicle for vocalizing an obvious disdain for women. 



MrsDan, I know that you will not believe me but I do not post in order to belittle women in general or the OP in this case. Ever.

I post in order to offer my take on what a poster is asking. Yes, oft times it is out of step with what many others here have to say. But isn't that the beauty of an open forum? The possibility that someone you have never met may have an insight or view that maybe, just maybe, may be a way out of whatever it is that troubles you?

I am under no illusions that my thoughts are equal to Moses bringing them down from the mountain. They are just one guy's ideas. That's all. I could be wrong, I know that.

I am primarily interested in the Socializing threads because there seem to be many questions along the line of why is my guy doing this, why did he say that, what do guys want, why is dating a man confusing and the like. There are very few men that post here so I figure I have something valuable to contribute. I had a successful dating and remarriage experience. So, I think I have some standing. 

That's all this is. If you disagree with my possible explanation of the OP's issue, that's fine. It doesn't necessarily follow that your disagreement must mean I want to belittle women.

Best wishes - Mike
Title: Re: Drawing the line with the x?
Post by: Metv on June 23, 2017, 01:52:46 PM
Exes come in an absolute array of differences. Although it is never one size fits all, having contact (appearingly more than meets the eye), and making OP feel uncomfortable, is an absolute no go for me. And I would think most. Been there. More than once I ended a post widowed relationship because the ones I were dating, and involved in a relationship with, were in the "friends" zone too much for my comfort. So I ended it. Best things I ever did. If someone is interested in a future w me, my feelings should matter (more than the exes). You're a bit unclear as to whether you think he's responding to texts on which you feel uncomfortable, or anger / jealousy.
Title: Re: Drawing the line with the x?
Post by: Forgottenwife on June 23, 2017, 02:20:38 PM
I think it is a good idea, as you noted, to get your boundaries clear before you get married. Maybe it may be a good idea to decide why this is important to you though. Is it just because she is his ex wife? If it was your sister or a colleague or a neighbor that needed car help, would you object to that? I can't fix cars but I do have some skills in other areas and occasionally a family member or a friend will ask for my help. If it isn't more than an hour or two and I have the time to spare, sometimes I am happy to do it. Honestly, if my partner objected to me doing someone a favor, I think I would be pretty insulted.

Just because people are divorced doesn't mean they have to stop being helpful. Your NG helping his ex may mean that she has more resources to help their kids. I have a good friend whos ex husband helps her out sometimes - car repairs, home repairs, surprise situations - he even took care of her mom after surgery for a day once. They don't like each other romantically anymore, but he and I have shared BBQ duties at one of their kids graduation parties. I am kind of impressed that they still have this kind of working relationship. The kids see that Mom or Dad needs something and their other parent steps up. It really does make the kids' lives so much easier.

Not saying this is right or wrong for anyone else, it is just their lives. I have also seen situations where people never ever for any reason speak to their exes and under no circumstances would they do anything to help them out. Everyone is different. Maybe your NG is someone that wants to be there for the mom of his kids and try to help her out, therefore helping his kids out, when he can reasonably accommodate her. This is something I would definitely want to know before you move in together. Best of luck in navigating this, these things can be tricky to figure out.
Title: Re: Drawing the line with the x?
Post by: Trying on June 23, 2017, 03:31:41 PM
Although I don't want to defend Portside's blunt delivery I do think his male perspective is relevant.  My fiancĂ©, when frustrated by his ex, often gives in just to end the argument and if I start nagging or complaining about how he is handling it he has said to me that he really can't handle two women attacking him.  Not having been divorced I am trying to understand or at least respect his position.  The time leading up to the divorce, the divorce negotiations and the time after were very stressful, emotionally exhausting, with lots of anger on both sides.  He wants desperately for that to be behind them and have a civil relationship for the sake of the kids. 

I don't think any of this means that we shouldn't be able to voice our own needs and boundaries in our relationship but I think that trying to understand our partner's motivation can help us approach the topic with less anger and defensiveness so maybe they can hear us better.  I am working at this myself, though too often my own emotions get in the way.
Title: Re: Drawing the line with the x?
Post by: Metv on June 23, 2017, 04:23:21 PM
 8) 8)
Title: Re: Drawing the line with the x?
Post by: jgib on June 23, 2017, 07:06:04 PM
Mike, I think you are dead right and more women should listen when you give feedback. 
Men think differently then women and I think any insight is welcome.  Doesn't mean right or wrong, just more things to ponder....
Title: Re: Drawing the line with the x?
Post by: fairlanegirl on June 24, 2017, 06:53:02 PM
Mike, I think you are dead right and more women should listen when you give feedback. 
Men think differently then women and I think any insight is welcome.  Doesn't mean right or wrong, just more things to ponder....
It's the monolithic idea of 'how men think' and 'how women think' that I find a bit odd - frankly.
Title: Re: Drawing the line with the x?
Post by: Trying on June 24, 2017, 08:09:21 PM
Obviously not all men think alike nor do all women think alike.  On a formum like this, where we are predominately women, and most of the men are here only in the early months, I think we at least need to listen to the male opinion, even if we don't agree, when we are looking for insight with the men in our lives.  I wish we had a broader range of men to share with but as my DH would say "it is what it is". 

I know my fiancĂ© (and in the past my DH) thinks and reacts very differently than me.  I may not always be receptive and he may not always communicate well but I feel that we should each try to understand the perspective of the other. 

This weekend is an example where we both were set in our limited way of thinking and the tension felt insurmountable.  At some point you either have to agree to disagree while respecting each other's feelings or walk away.
Title: Re: Drawing the line with the x?
Post by: trying2breathe on June 25, 2017, 01:43:26 PM
I enjoy the male perspective here, and yes maybe it's stereotypical to think that all men react and feel the same, just as possibly all women react and feel the same.  I believe that men and women generally speaking, are different emotionally and have different ways of thinking and reacting.  Although Portside's posts can sometimes seem abrupt, from my experience what he shares matches closely the interactions that I've had with LH, NG and male relatives.
Title: Re: Drawing the line with the x?
Post by: jgib on June 25, 2017, 08:00:52 PM
I was not saying all men are the same, nor all women.  But men and women's hormones, brain functions as well as other things, are different and as such thoughts, reactions and emotions are different.
I accept and value the differences! 
I have been around long enough now that I prefer to listen and learn about differences.   It is difficult when two people's ideas about things are very different.
Title: Re: Drawing the line with the x?
Post by: Metv on June 25, 2017, 09:07:40 PM
I think men here are probably outnumbered 100 to 1, mainly because I think men have to appear to be tougher when widowing, don't fully express their feelings, and never anticipated having certain conversations about parameters regarding exes, but when feeling uncomfortable about conversing, have more than once had to rethink future plans. Seems like it shouldn't be this difficult, sometimes.
Title: Re: Drawing the line with the x?
Post by: BrokenHeart2 on June 26, 2017, 05:43:12 AM
For some reason my post didn't work yesterday so I'll try it again.
I too think that getting male perspective is valuable as well.  Unfortunately, Portside's post from early stated this "Peeing in the corners to mark out territory and boundaries will only work if you include him...".  I find this kind of analogy totally unnecessary and insulting.  There is always a better way to express oneself without the denigrating comments.
Title: Re: Drawing the line with the x?
Post by: Captains wife on June 26, 2017, 07:46:03 AM
daysofelijah - I feel your pain when it comes to trying to deal with exes. I am struggling with this more than I expected in my CH 2. I do think, however, there needs to be a line in the sand when exes are involved - I understand divorced parents need to co-parent but when they are divorced, I feel that acting like a married couple in other ways is unacceptable and not fair to the new partner. If you feel as though your guy's ex is coming into your relationship space too much, have an open, honest conversation about it with him and hopefully he will manage the situation appropriately (which it is his role to do). Also, you might want to express what you are comfortable with and not. For example, I drew the line in the sand with my NG for certain things. ie. no co-parenting trips away together or I don't want to be in her toxic space - given the way she is acting right now - so I have purposely been avoiding events so far where she will be there (even though he has invited me). If his ex was constantly texting him and asking for help around the house, with her car etc etc. I would NOT be ok with this. (I deal with ALL this stuff myself as a widow). They have had a few phone arguments when he was over at my house (and we hardly have time together as it is) and I told him that was not ok to bring into our space.  I did used to be very passive aggressive about this topic and would just get moody (and shut down) when I was unhappy with the ex situation but I realized that my NG really didn't need to have his toxic ex and me giving him a hard time at the same time - so talking openly about it and my feelings about it was a much better way to go. Im still trying to figure out what I can and cant deal with in this new world of dating divorced parents with children so its a learning process for all of us !
Title: Re: Drawing the line with the x?
Post by: arneal on June 26, 2017, 11:51:55 AM
Seems the ability to 'like' a post is gone again  ::) CaptainsWife -- consider what you said 'liked'  ;D
Title: Re: Drawing the line with the x?
Post by: daysofelijah on June 29, 2017, 08:36:40 AM
Sorry I can't seem to like everyone's posts anymore. I appreciate all the comments. I even let NG read my initial post and gave him a brief summary of the responses. We have had a couple good talks since the original event and I think we are coming to more of an agreement on things.

He sees that "X" stuff makes me uncomfortable and he is trying. Actually she has seemed to back off since he told her no about fixing her car. So maybe it will pass. Or maybe now that we have talked more about it I won't be so overly emotional when things do come up.

He really wants to know how to deal with things the right way and not cause me any hurt. He tells me again and again that I am the only woman he wants, that he will fight for me, he would never go back to someon who hurt him like she did, etc. I need to let go of insecurities and believe what he says, because I really do think that is how things are. Like I said I have just never had to deal with X's before and he has soo much more of them than I ever had. (Another insecurity of mine).

So really a lot of this is because we have so much different pasts. We are so good together though and very much in love, so I am learning to trust myself and trust him. It's hard, but I believe it will be worth it.
Title: Re: Drawing the line with the x?
Post by: jgib on June 29, 2017, 11:18:15 AM
Trust and believe....it is worth it....
Title: Re: Drawing the line with the x?
Post by: Bunny on June 29, 2017, 01:02:24 PM
Once, in the beginning of our relationship, my boyfriend was teasing me about a woman (happens to be younger and thinner than me) who has a big ol' crush on him, telling me I better watch out! My response? 'If she can take you, she can have you.'  It's not the easiest place to always reside in, but when you have enough faith and security in yourself then you stop worrying about anyone 'stealing' your man. Seriously- if they can be stolen away, you are much better off without them anyway. So worrying about it becomes a fruitless activity. (Incidentally, he loved my response.)

Also- it's better if they have a good relationship with the ex rather than a really shitty one. Soooo much better.
Title: Re: Drawing the line with the x?
Post by: Metv on June 29, 2017, 02:39:00 PM
Trust shouldn't have to be stipulative to receive it.  Very good points ^^^
Title: Re: Drawing the line with the x?
Post by: jgib on June 29, 2017, 03:42:01 PM
Bunny, my thoughts exactly.  If he doesn't want to be with me ahead of all others, I have no interest in being with him.  A philosophy I have always lived by.
Title: Re: Drawing the line with the x?
Post by: fairlanegirl on June 29, 2017, 04:46:16 PM
Second that Bunny. My daughter was playing Dolly Parton's dreadful (but annoyingly catchy!) song 'Jolene' on youtube the other night and I said just remember, no one ever 'steals' a person who really doesn't want to go. Though it's a great track in terms of raw emotion, ol' Dolly's singing to the wrong person, and how much of a catch is the fellow anyway?!

In saying that, I have seen people driven away by constant illogical jealousy and insecurity. 'Well if they think I'm up to no good, i might as well be' syndrome I guess.
Title: Re: Drawing the line with the x?
Post by: kjs1989 on July 05, 2017, 11:52:03 PM
DOE,

I get this. She sounds quite similar to NG's ex in some respects, always finding a reason to text him about random stuff. His daughter is 23 and son 16. They are perfectly capable of communicating directly with their dad without her being the go-between.

Her texts range from accusatory, nagging, and controlling...."you didn't do this.....you need to do that....why don't you this.....why don't you that....you never this...you never that.... you're a terrible dad...I hate you...."

Then, just the other night she flipped to...."Oh, thank you so much for taking care of that.....you always say the right things... you always know just what to do....you're such a great dad...love you...."

For real, she said, "Love you." They have been divorced since 2008. She filed papers while he was on a rare golf trip and called to surprise him with the news. Then she took the kids and moved in with a dude  as soon as the ink was dry.

NG just rolled his eyes.

Blech.

Yeah, I am with you on this....car repairs....house repairs....libido repairs....JUST NO.
Title: Re: Drawing the line with the x?
Post by: Metv on July 10, 2017, 12:29:53 AM
[quote JUST NO.
[/quote]

Totally agree.