Love and Logic strategies

[RobFTC]

When I talk to my daughter about finances, I get a blank stare and no response.

 

I get eyerolls, too :-)  Does it help at all if you ask her questions (curiously, not like an interrogation)?  That gets my girls to open up.  "I don't know" can be an opportunity to offer to give them some ideas - offering first can avoid your words feeling like a lecture.  Being a consultant is the goal.

 

I do agree that as a member of the household there should be responsibilities that DD can manage.  DD is lazy - after 1-1/2 years living in the same house, she still doesn't remember trash days.    :-\ :  Or to unload the dishwasher, or run a load of laundry.  I'm being played, I realize, not sure how to break this cycle though.

 

I still always have to talk about what needs to be done, they won't think of it on their own.  I could move that line, but for now it is OK with me to lightly mention what I am doing and what I expect them to do and when.  I have awakened them when I go to bed (an hour or more after their bedtime) to do chores that are time-bound, like taking out the trash or getting ingredients for the meals they will be cooking.  Matter-of-fact this-is-what-you-said-you'd-do seems to work best.  And they have done their own laundry entirely for some years now.

 

A trap L&L books talk about is having kids in the position of honored guests that get catered to, instead of actual members of the family.  It's important for them to pull some of the weight, and to fail and try until they get it right.  Asking questions about what chores she thinks are fair might be an avenue to try.

 

On enforcement, you have to say what you're going to do, not demand that they do something.  "I provide with WiFi password to people who are current on their chores" is good if you don't find changing the WiFi password an enormous pain for yourself.  I don't do that exactly, but I block external access to their devices at times.

 

Other than a college fund, DD has no savings.  She has a credit card and a gas card both linked to mine, and a debit card, but doesn?t really know the difference between them.  Not a good idea to have her in possession of credit cards, she has very little concept of credit.

 

The main thing I wanted to do was model that you have an income of some kind that is not readily changeable, and expenses that might be.  When you hit the wall and can't do what you want, and the only one you can blame is yourself, it prompts growth :-)  So I fund their accounts, and that's all the access they have to my resources.

 

I wasn't ever bad with money, but I remember how being underemployed after university and a month away from having to pack up and move back in with Mom & Dad was very good for my focus :-)

 

Take care,

Rob T

[mmg19]

If your kids are not yet teenagers or not yet to the place of driving, dating, etc. this might be something you would be interested in trying.  It is working for me.  My kids are now 12 and 14. 

 

Faced not only with losing DH and having children totally dependent on me,  I was faced with CC debt, a lifestyle that was going to change drastically,  and an immediate need to find a full time job, benefits, and sell our home.  3 years later, I am debt free, house sold, renting, working in a job I love though not in the fast lane financially. 

 

Started by introducing them to a budget.  Living within our means.  Expenses can't be greater than income.  Food, clothing, and shelter were necessities.  Everything else a want.  The boys were my biggest support.  The crash course in money 101 was the best thing for them.  Track every expenditure.    The first month was shocking to each of us.  When they needed a cell phone and we checked the possibilities, they could readily see the difference between a smartphone (which many friends had) and a trac phone that gave them access to getting in touch with me and didn't have a monthly charge.. 

 

When the house sold and I had a nice chunk of equity, they learned about mortgages and interest rates for a new mortgage based on FICO scores.  Renting rather than buying immediately became a no brainer to them.  This summer I will buy and qualify for a lower interest rate and downsizing is acceptable without their feeling deprived.

 

Regardless of age or the amount of money you have, all kids need to understand the in's and out's of a budget.  They need saving goals.  The 14 year old is putting 100% of gift money and any earnings from small jobs in savings for a car when he is 16.  So far I think he has enough for 2 tires and a steering wheel but he has a goal. 

 

1.Teach them how to budget.

2.Teach them to track their spending and be accountable.

3.Save a portion of an;y gift, earnings, etc.

4.Discretionary spending is important but they need to learn good choices and consequences.

5.Giving is important  (I used the parable of the widow's mite)  Generosity is based on % not on dollor amount.

6.Listen, discuss, and tweak when necessary.

 

We each are different in where we are in parenting and the amount of money, lifestyle, and ages of our children.  One size doesn't fit all.  This has worked for me and probably because of the ages and circumstances of DH's death.(illness, medical bills, and limited life insurance)

 

 

 

 

[trying2breathe]

It is good to start young, sounds like a plan that's working, mmg.  Of your list #4 is our biggest struggle - discretionary spending.  DD gets caught up with friends and doesn't think - sure doesn't help that we live in an affluent area where some kids have no limits on spending.  Case in point - DD out to lunch with 3 friends, all plunk down their credit cards and split the bill 4 ways.  DD comes home with a $23 charge for lunch      Maybe this is okay every once in awhile, but it's a regular thing. 

 

Rob    I admit that I'm in interrogation mode when we go over the credit card statement - she gets uncomfortable - I'll tone this down a bit.  It's frustrating that she does chores only when asked, and has no initiative to do anything on her own.  The dishes will sit, trash bin overflows, her bedroom floor is covered with dirty laundry - it's as if she doesn't notice.  I would offer to pay her for additional chores around the house, at this point we're not getting even the basics done. 

 

It's so hard to be consistent with DD, but I will try hard to only offer the extras, like Wi-Fi or use of the car, once chores are completed. 

 

DD mentions that she'll be 18 this fall, and then she's "free".  Hahaha - she's still in my household though, rules still apply. 

[RobFTC]

It's frustrating that she does chores only when asked, and has no initiative to do anything on her own.  The dishes will sit, trash bin overflows, her bedroom floor is covered with dirty laundry - it's as if she doesn't notice.

 

She probably doesn't - she's a teen :-)  But you still need stuff done.  She's probably addicted to your reminders.  I wonder if you can mention something like, "I'll need you to take out the trash by the end of the day" and then wake her up past her bedtime when she forgets?  The wakeup would have to be gentle and kind, something like "This is so sad, it looks like you forgot to take out the trash, and it needs to go." The L&L folks want you to hope for them to fail at little things in order to learn the lessons that result, I am not quite there, but it seems like you should be able to oversee some good lessons :-)

 

You're on the right track with her "freedom" - have you set any expectations about what happens when she's 18?

 

Take care,

Rob T

[trying2breathe]

Rob  It's so frustrating that chores get done only when she's reminded.  I don't know that I'll have a chance to wake her up for reminders, as she's up studying later and I'm usually tucking in at about the same time she is.  But I can remind her before she heads out the door, whenever that is.  Consistency is difficult, I feel like I've been in semi-crisis mode for awhile and have let things slip.  It's time for me to get it together.   

 

Yesterday she mentioned plans on meeting a friend, and I said that she could go out once chores were done.  She tidied her room, laundry was started and the trash taken out.  I checked on her progress, and found that she had shoved all the dirty clothes into her closet!  :  We had a good laugh about it, then she sorted and hung her clothes up properly.  I need to work with her - shortcuts are her way of getting things done.  This morning she mentioned how nice to was to wake up to a clean room - yay! 

 

Another good thing - she mentioned gas money and the need to find a job. 

 

Aside from her being "legal", I'm not sure that there will many changes once she turns 18.  I think that DD is beginning to realize that she has a sweet deal here at home.  Other than increasing responsibility,  I'm not sure that my expectations of her should change, once she turns 18? 

[RobFTC]

Ah, the old "stuff it in the closet" trick, certainly familiar with that one.  Or under the bed in the spare room, or dumped into drawers, etc.  :

 

Yes, consistency will take some work, but it should pay off.  Regarding reminders, though - when I wake my girls up, it's not to issue a reminder, it's to tug on the leash - they had their choice of when to do the chore and blew it, so they now need to do it on my timetable.  It need not be after their bedtime.  If you say you would need it done by 10pm when you go to bed, that can be the time you tug on the leash.

 

When she turns 18, I would think her full-time activities should be school, work, or preparing to live independently, and expectations about taking care of herself and paying rent if possible should ramp up.  So yes, increasing responsibilities, but also some kind of end date.

 

Take care,

Rob T

[trying2breathe]

Good point on the tug on the leash vs. a reminder.  I usually don't give more than another nagging reminder, the message usually comes across as me being unreasonably demanding.  Thanks for the new way of thinking of this! 

 

DD is planning on college, and I do expect good grades and her continued participation in sports.  I'm on the fence on how much to ask her to pay for, as her working to pay for more would take time away from studies.  To have her pay for gas money, going out and incidentals is a good start, I guess, and the budgeting process of it is so important.  Should she delay college or decide not to go, this would certainly change the arrangement.   

 

 

[trying2breathe]

We're in the midst of grief again, my nephew and DD's closest cousin unexpectedly passed away last week.  DD opened up that not only did she lose her dearest cousin, but her girl group at school has excluded her and she's now down to one friend. 

 

How do I stick to rules now?  DD filled her car with my gas card, I don't feel that this is the time to start asking her when she'll get a job.  I know that the emotions will settle, but this is where I get soft and make things easy for her.  Any thoughts on how to manage this? 

 

 

 

 

[RobFTC]

Grief is hard.  But - she should not get by with treating you with disrespect or making you pick up pieces after her (after all, aren't you grieving too?).  I would not count popping for gas too much if you can afford it easily, and if you talk and mutually decide the bathrooms don't need to sparkle this month, that's fine too.  But I'd want to broadly showing her your example of putting one foot in front of the other and making it, and expecting her to do it too.

 

Take care,

Rob T

[RobFTC]

I should offer an update.  I think a lot of stuff in the house has been better for awhile, and a lot of the reason is just that there's less conflict.  I am asking for things to be done, and it's normal to get cooperation, even with some grousing from Twin A.  I would still like them to be better about actually remembering the routine plan-and-execute-your-cooking thing, but it is better.  The break was an important reset, but it also had us spending more time together, and friction was less.  I also set the tone for a new start with a L&L line - "I've never been a parent of a fifteen-year-old before, so I know I mess it up sometimes."  I have also tried to hand their grades firmly over to them - I want to look at them together every couple of weeks and ask what _they_ think and if they want to make changes.  Hard to know how that's going just yet.

 

A real triumph is what we got done over the break.  Except for their room which will need another pass at some point, we went through most of the toys and girl things in the basement, family room, and spare room.  And you should see what we donated!  Bags and bags.  A lot of it left last week, and there's another 9-10 bags plus a dollhouse to go.  We went through games like the wind (don't worry, we still have plenty).  They were good about sorting through stuff, and were very good about trying to get all the pieces of things together where possible.  I asked for and got two hours of work per day, and I found they were great if I was generous with a break in the middle.

 

I think they are doing pretty well with their finances.  When they need stuff, they ask me for rides but put their own plastic down.  They have plans for this year's cosplay/Halloween costumes, and I am seeing Miss R looking online and being creative and picky with what she considers.  They also have not been close to missing the bus since the break.

 

Some leash tugs:

- when Rebecca missed a few things with trash last week, I had her do it again this week "for practice" and she did

- when Sarah missed starting a slow-cooker meal without properly thinking about it, she got to put something on the table that night and try again the next night

- I woke Rebecca up at 11pm to unload the dishwasher she'd said she'd unload, and just said "this isn't what you promised"

 

Take care,

Rob T

[trying2breathe]

Wow  slow boards these days 

 

Rob  Happy to hear that things are going well, I like the leash tug philosophy and am trying this out in our household with success so far.    I bet it felt great to have a big sort out of toys!   

 

 

[RobFTC]

Parenting is fun, part 67: Sarah lost her phone.  Awhile ago.  Possibly weeks ago.  She said she stuffed it hastily in a pocket to catch the bus, and didn't have it when she got to school.  Did she try to alert me so I could look quickly, or use Find My iPhone?  No.  Did she tell me?  No, though she told her sister.  But then she lied to her sister about it being found at school.  Was she planning on covering up for awhile yet?  Yes!  She told me yesterday that it had run out of battery when she texted me from a friend's phone for a ride.  Something sounded dodgy, so I tried to find her phone with the app, nada.  So I asked her about it after school.  She again said it had run out of battery, so I asked her to get it for me.  And she finally came clean.  It makes sense - she's usually on her phone, but has been on her Nintendo a lot more suddenly.  I asked if she thought waiting would be a better deal; she knew she was probably making it worse.

 

Consquences:

- I require her to have a phone, and I bought the first one, so she will pay for the replacement.

- I have her Nintendo until this is solved, so she won't be distracted.

- She will shop eBay for another phone (though I will probably make the actual purchase and have her pay me back).

 

I am not quite sure if I should do something about the lying, and if so, what would work.  Thoughts, anyone?

 

Thanks,

Rob T

[Trying]

Rob, I have not been able to convince my kids that they are always in less trouble when they are upfront instead of lying and hiding things from me. The natural consequence is a loss of trust, I question everything and require proof before I believe them which drives them crazy. That lasts an undetermined amount of time after each breach of trust but there are always certain areas I don't trust each of them from past experience.

 

Once she gets the new phone can you have her turn it in to you when she is in the house and she gets it back when she leaving the house?

[RobFTC]

Hi Trying,

 

I know that loss of trust and a short leash are your natural reactions to their actions, but I would not call them natural consequences.  Unless you can really calmly state a new set of rules that will be dispassionately checked while they are in "trust timeout", I think they would just see it as "Mom's all emo again".  If they can blame it on you, it's not effective as it doesn't make them look at their decisions.  I wonder if you can come up with some loss of privilege that gets them thinking more that way?

 

In Sarah's case, she did the work of picking out a phone, which I lightly vetted and then ordered (but she will pay me back), and I haven't quite decided when she gets her Nintendo back.  We talked about what-ifs: how would it have worked if she could have had me look for the phone that day, and how would it have been to be able to use Find My iPhone, etc.  We also talked about whether she'd thought how long she could hide the unpleasant truth, and if she had thought ahead to a way out.  Her lies are out of fear and avoidance, so I am hoping to make some progress on the tunnel vision she gets with something like this.  We had one brain storm - part of her issue is that she has pants with crappy pockets that don't hold her phone well, and we realized we could replace the pockets with better ones.  Michelle always railed at how women's clothing had either no pockets or crappy pockets, so she's got to be amused right now :-)

 

Take care,

Rob T

[momtokam]

Rob, does she have any ideas what you should do regarding consequences about the lying? Sometimes they are tougher on themselves than we could be.

 

Maybe the new phone should be very limited in features, call/text only....limited/or no data/music plans etc?

 

Would she pay for it from the money you give her quarterly or from other funds?

 

I agree with Trying on lying and the trust issue. It needs to be earned and losing that trust results in having her needing to earn it back.

 

I haven't faced a lying situation like this so I'm not sure if I helped at all.

 

When my daughter's phone got dropped and run over (cracked screen) and dropped in the toilet, the repair bills had to be paid back in babysitting hours for her siblings.

[RobFTC]

Hmmm, you're right, asking her might be an idea.  She's usually not that creative.  Still ...

 

I asked her what she had done to look for it; she says she's looked every time she goes to or comes from the bus.  I think she fell into the lie because she hoped she'd find it without my knowing, but then she felt trapped.  I should have another talk with her about why I don't lie - that it's just too much work to maintain :-)

 

I am almost opposite on the phone, I want her to revel in getting it back and get even more addicted to it.  She's lost it in her room and needed help finding it, and I wish she paid more attention to where it was.

 

Regarding payment, what I am thinking now is that she will get less when I transfer the quarterly funds next month.  The idea of her earning it with chores might be a good one.  Hmmm.

 

Take care,

Rob T

[Catnip]

Hi Rob,

Love your daughter's phone stories. My kids are older, but I still read here. Our story:

My 30 year old son still lives at home in my basement. I don't mind, he has a full-time job with benefits, and has his BA degree. He mows my lawn and shovels the snow. And, I don't want to be alone.

Well, he lost his phone. So he searched his car, and the house, and back to his car again. He finally found the phone in the living room sofa cushions.

I knew nothing about this until the next morning. His car wouldn't start. He knew immediately that he left the interior light on and the glove compartment open. His battery died. How did I find out? My car and his car were running in the driveway with him jumping his car. At least my car was warmed up for me!

Kids.

[RobFTC]

Hey guys,

 

I have let this thread languish too long!  I had a Father's Day update...

 

My girls have always been dodgy about birthdays and Father's Day, with the former being far more important to me personally.  This year, they did both remember to seek me out and wish me a happy birthday, and I even got a fun watercolor from Rebecca.  Sarah had talked about having an ideal gift idea earlier in the year, but never acted on it - I may have to tell her that wasn't a good thing some day without making her guilty.  But they did what I have told them was the most important thing for me - find me and wish me a happy birthday.  Progress!

 

Father's Day, though.  They slept teenager-late, so I only saw one of them before I went off to do my radio show, and when I got back at 4:30 or so, they were both still in pajamas.  I just said, "So, what are we doing for Father's Day?"  Sarah was horrified - she had had no clue.  I get that; we talked about how if you're not on Facebook to see the noise that you probably want to subscribe to a holiday calendar or something to get reminders.  Rebecca said that she'd realized it was Father's Day, but hadn't done anything about it.  I said, "OK, but we should go out to dinner anyway."  Sarah went to get dressed, but Rebecca dug in her heels, hard - "I haven't showered, I'm not presentable!"  "Well," I said, "you knew about this and could have been ready, right?"  "Yeah...."  I liked what I came up with next: I told her that she could veto dinner out on Father's Day if she paid for dinner for all of us the next night.  She swallowed hard, but agreed.  I went out and picked up dinner for me, and left them to manage for themselves, happy that I hadn't let a teachable moment pass!

 

So we went out to an Afghan restaurant the following night, and she had to solve her own problem again.  After we ordered, she said, "Dad, wait! I don't have enough on my debit card!"  I said, "You mean you didn't plan ahead?" (I say that a lot, and usually have to suppress laughter HARD :-) .)  I let her stew for a minute, and she asked if she could pay with a combination of cash and card, and that worked.

 

So overall, I think I made my expectations clear without being unpleasant, and negotiated stuff that worked for me and may have made a point.  I guess I have to wait a year to know for sure!

 

Take care,

Rob T

[Trying]

Wow Rob, I'm impressed with you ability to confront the awkward and uncomfortable situation and stick with the deal your daughter chose.  I find the "teachable moments" much harder when it come to my kids treatment of me than of others.

[RobFTC]

Internet, oh what a complex relationship we have with thee!

 

So we got back from vacation in Canada 10 days ago.  For part of that trip, we were in the national parks and doing hikes to see things, and Becca has Pokemon Go fired up and was finding that fun to walk around with.  Well, fun when the servers were not crashing on her.

 

Upon return, I gave them a week to figure out some kind of "be more fit" plan.  I mean, my sedentary ways got me into health troubles, and seeing them this inactive is alarming to me.  I'd floated that they could join me at the gym, figure out a martial arts dojo to join, get out on their bikes more (at all), or get out and do Pokemon Go with several of their friends.  Nada.  The giant teat of the Interwebz has them entranced.  They almost break far enough away to think about plans with friends, but not always enough to nail them down.  I let them know I had to see movement, and we have plans to ride bikes to Dairy Queen tonight (because my offer of gym membership was awful!)  ;D  I may have complicated that with trying in the same timeframe to combat the Internet issue.

 

I had had a talk with a friend about her kids' Internet addiction while we were up in Canada, and how a tool that had helped some was OurPact.  I thought it would shut down WiFi and 3G/4G/LTE networking, but is doesn't do that; instead it hides all but a few core apps.  I announced last night that I needed them to give me their phones with a piece of paper with the PIN on it so that I could install this software.  It sent Becca into a tailspin - my goals were unclear and she went straight to the worst case scenario.  After some discussion, she got that I wanted to see her not let all other things get swamped by Internet time, like exercise, chores around the house and actual F2F time with friends.

 

So cut to today.  Becca's device was down when she got up, and I let her know that that was only until the "clean your room" task that they had agreed to do by yesterday evening was actually done.  If it had just taken a long time, I'd be OK, but Rebecca sat doing Interwebz stuff for a good while after dinner instead of taking time to do any cleaning.  It's still off, I am wondering how long this will go on?  ???

 

Who else has good ideas of diluting the lure of the cell phone / tablet / computer linked to a technology I could not ever have imagined when I was their age?  Or, has anyone managed to get their kids doing more active things?

 

Take care,

Rob T

[Guest TooSoon]

Rob, we're heading out west later today for family vacation, and I have just endured a week long battle over the ipad.  I refuse to bring it.  You would think I was telling my daughter she could have no food or water for two weeks - and she is NINE.  Some of this is my own doing - she's an only child, we have no television in our house, so I've been pretty lax about the ipad.  But I am not schlepping this child across the country to have her tuned out the whole time, damn it.  Time to break that spell - at least temporarily.  Will report back as to how she manages sans devices.....assuming I survive. 

[mmg19]

I certainly don't have all the answers to your questions but this is something that concerns me greatly.  We are not a heavily wired family.  1 TV with limited cable, 1 laptop computer, and 3 cell phones as of this summer.  Previously the boys only had trac phones.  Once they got smartphones rules went into place and they were so excited about having their own phone that they accepted my rules. 

 

1.  All phones are charged and put up at 10 pm.  Mine included.

2.  No texting, social media checking, or game playing when guests, family, friends are visiting or we are engaged in activities. (Meal time, discussions, chores, family activities (my call).

3.  All passwords are given to me and they know I check.  Safety and convenience of keeping in contact with me is top priority.

4.  Since school is not in session, they have a lot of leeway texting and talking with friends during the day unless it becomes a detriment to physical activity and all other interests.  (Reading, hobbies, etc.)

 

I've never been thought of as a drill sergeant and try(I say try) to listen to objections and accept there will always be exceptions to every rule at times.  Because my boys were older when getting a phone it has been easier.  I'm not so naive as to believe it will remain this easy. 

 

 

[RobFTC]

Rough night tonight, and could use some warm thoughts.

 

Background.  After our discussion the other night about OurPact and her tailspin, I set up to talk with Rebecca about our working better together.  My first ask was counseling, but she made it clear she didn't want to cooperate.  I pitched an alternative that I thought might help - that we try to use "Couple Skills" that I talk about here.  It's for people in relationships, which isn't directly useful, but some of the chapters (e.g. listening skills) could be useful.

 

Tonight, she started dinner late, and then put undercooked chicken on the table, so it had to go back in the oven. Repeat performance, of course - this happens far too often, and of course it's never her fault.  I used the best language I could muster to say how this was a problem again, and not OK, and the tension built.  I asked what she'd read of the book; she'd looked at it a little and then blew it off as not relevant.  More tension, dinner was awful.  I told her I wanted to talk anyway, to try to find something that works.  She wanted to go for a bike ride to see her best friend, and turned that into an impromptu sleepover.  She's good at avoidance!  I thought the sleepover might let us start new tomorrow.

 

I need this child to do her part of the work as if she is a part of this family and not an honored guest.  I need something that works to make our relationship better, she is resistant to everything I want to try and has no willingness to work on anything to make things better.  I can't figure out what to do next.  I am so sick of doing this myself and not even having anyone to talk to about it.  I figured I had to be OK when I appeared to be destined to be single, but I am not sure I can do that from here.

 

Rob T

[Trying]

Rob I'm sorry this is so frustrating right now and I know how exhausting doing it all alone is.  I won't pretend to have any magic answers because as you know I have faced my own parenting challenges and have a few stubborn kids of my own.  My middle son went through a phase where I think he was purposefully not doing anything he was supposed to or not doing it right so I would continue to nag and all of our interactions were negative.  He seemed to want to prove to himself that I didn't love him.  I had to find ways to have positive interactions with him that had nothing to do with chores or expectations.  He was too old to fall for a planned "special time" so it had to be just moments grabbed here and there.  He has great taste in music so time alone in the car letting him pick a playlist and signing along together is always a good bonding time for us and opens up to communication. 

 

You are doing all of the right things as a parent and she is acting like so many teenagers do.  The difference is that you don't get to close your bedroom door at night and commiserate with your wife and that part just sucks.  Hang in, some how we all will survive this solo parenting journey. 

[mmg19]

Rob these are my warm thoughts.

1.  Your incite, suggestions, loving manner has been helpful to me in so many ways.

2.  You are doing things right and even though sometimes it seems too slow, your patience, love, and concern for your girls is amazing.

3.  Parenting is a long term job before we see results of our efforts. 

4.  Thank you for starting a Love and Logic thread and providing the resource for solo parenting and particularly for showing us how to never give up.

5.  Hugs to you and wishing you a peaceful day.