Dating Etiquette

[MrsDan]

 

 

I'm telling you as honestly as I can - give it up on the first date and your name will get around and it won't be positive.

 

 

 

 

The very fact that you are using the term "giving it up" shows how way off base you are. When a woman CHOOSES to have sex, she is not giving anything up; women are in control of their sexuality and may use it as they please. If you think less of a woman because of when she chooses to engage in intercourse, that's your right if it reflects a value system that includes both sexes waiting until a meaningful relationship is underway. But if it's based on a belief that a woman's sexuality is a thing rather than a facet of her personhood, that it is something to be presented as an offering to men, then that is an objectification of women. It's that objectification that forms the foundation of misogyny, and objecting to that is not an over extension of political correctness. It's advocating for the personhood of a group that, I hate to break it to you, constitutes roughly 50 per cent of the world's population.

[kjs1989]

Oh, sooo spot on, Mrs Dan!!

[serpico]

If you think less of a woman because of when she chooses to engage in intercourse, that's your right if it reflects a value system that includes both sexes waiting until a meaningful relationship is underway. But if it's based on a belief that a woman's sexuality is a thing rather than a facet of her personhood, that it is something to be presented as an offering to men, then that is an objectification of women.

 

It has already been established that Portside wasn't speaking for himself.  It is his opinion that a woman who allows a man to insert his penis into her vagina (sound better?) on the first date is risking looking like an undesirable mate.  You don't have to like that or the reasons behind it, and said woman doesn't have to care how she comes off, but it is not an unreasonable opinion.

[momtokam]

What I find interesting is that, none of the gentleman here, with the opinion that a woman who has sex on the first date is a non postitive thing, have said they would refuse it, if offered.

 

They have said they would wonder about it the next day, trash her name with their buddies....etc., etc. So then it's ok for them to partake in the experience then? Hmmmmm......

 

So IF I had the opinion that men who want sex on the first date are scum, where does that put men who do partake in having sex on the first date?

 

Everyone's situation is different and everyone can have their beliefs. Obviously for some, first date sex HAS "formed deep, loving, successful relationships". For others, waiting produces the same results. Not so cut and dry here.

[MrsDan]

If you think less of a woman because of when she chooses to engage in intercourse, that's your right if it reflects a value system that includes both sexes waiting until a meaningful relationship is underway. But if it's based on a belief that a woman's sexuality is a thing rather than a facet of her personhood, that it is something to be presented as an offering to men, then that is an objectification of women.

 

It has already been established that Portside wasn't speaking for himself.  It is his opinion that a woman who allows a man to insert his penis into her vagina (sound better?) on the first date is risking looking like an undesirable mate.  You don't have to like that or the reasons behind it, and said woman doesn't have to care how she comes off, but it is not an unreasonable opinion.

 

Actually, "a woman who puts a man's penis into her vagina" sounds even better. But I digress. The use of the term "giving it up," which Portside used," is what I find objectionable. It was his choice of words to describe intercourse. Situating a woman's body as an offering is offensive. Period.

[Guest TormentedTwoStep]

What I find interesting is that, none of the gentleman here, with the opinion that a woman who has sex on the first date is a non postitive thing, have said they would refuse it, if offered.

 

They have said they would wonder about it the next day, trash her name with their buddies....etc., etc. So then it's ok for them to partake in the experience then? Hmmmmm......

 

 

Let me start by saying that I have never once had the offer.  But, yes, I would refuse it.  For many, many reasons.  Would I be flattered and tempted?  Probably-but I would still turn it down both for her dignity as well as mine, regardless of her offer and her choice alone to make that offer.

 

And no-it's not okay to take her up on it and then be "one of those guys".  Yep-scum in my book.  Just because someone asks to give you something doesn't mean it's proper to accept the offer.  Sometimes you just take the higher ground because it may be best for the one offering as well as yourself.  It's part of being a discerning grown up.

[Guest TalksToAngels]

Ok dropping out of this conversation. I once remember someone telling me he (we'll also say she) who asks for too options will soon have none of their own. I must just say point blank to the OP as far as.. Do all

men use suggestive language, or something to that effect.

 

No. We are all individuals and each will look to their own beliefs and wants as far as what they are looking for, a relationship or not, sex, or not until the time is right, or a lasting relationship or partnership.

Not all men are near the same, as can be said the same, for women.

Me I think after my spouse died, I didn't know what I wanted. Made mistakes, but tried not to repeat.

I would rather have one kind and caring person in my life, and for that I mean, getting to know one (1) person. It didn't work out that way for me (meaning I did not find the right, one). But the sex was secondary to something stable. I can't remember the first time I had intimacy with my Wife. But it was not on a first or what I remember second "date". My mind doesn't remember, or for that fact right now, want to. It actually baffles me to try to remember.

[RobFTC]

Hi Helen!

 

I want my sexual partners to not be batshit crazy, which takes a bit of time to figure out.  As such, I am not up for sex on the first date, no judgement if others are.  I wrote about the last such offer I got and refused, not to shame but just because it went with the rest of a good story.

 

For sex once past your own limit, it should be what you both want.  I think talking about this out loud can be cool to get consent and what you both want out of the way, but not all want to do that.  At any point, you should enjoy yourself, and if that stops being true at any point, it's not too late to say so.

 

As to going how long do you wait for sparks, I don't have rules, but I get a gnawing sense of "I don't think so" somewhere around the 2nd or 3rd date often enough that it's a trend.  Is that enough?  I'm not sure.  But I only have second thoughts about one person I stopped seeing for this reason.

 

I don't take flirting in a very sexual direction much, and I really hate doing too much of anything via texting (got burn scars, thanks).  I prefer to at least have people hear my voice, and in person is better.  I think too many guys "sext" like idiots.

 

On the "slut shaming" sidebar - Mike, you imply "all or most" men are a certain way, and while I feel older than average most days, your post makes me feel young - i.e., on the other side of a generational divide.  I like my side better, as my peers and I aren't like you imply.

 

Take care,

Rob T

[fairlanegirl]

Thanks for that Rob. There is no more a 'male mind' belonging to half the planet's population than there is a 'female mind', the notion is a bit silly. A subset of men or women might think a certain way, another subset, a different way. Obviously cultural mores will be a big influence too but as they say in Life of Brian, 'We're all individuals!'

Helen, the very best of luck to you. As one of those who ended up with a 'new' fellow I'd actually known peripherally for decades, I admire you. 'Dating' American style wasn't even a thing here until 20 years ago or less - we never used the term dating. You 'were 'going out with' someone, often met at a party while you were half-cut (!) or through mutual friends, or at work. I don't think I'd have had the chutzpah to go online. I guess the main thing is to be on the same page as each other (short-term/long-term etc.) but therein lies the main source of heartache, doesn't it? Sometimes we don't even know ourselves.Take care.

[Helen]

 

Rob, so lovely to hear your input on this, as always really helpful. I think maybe your '2 or 3 dates then if you feel no sparks move on' could work for me. I will probably end it with guy#1 tomorrow.

 

It is very clear that everyone is different and it has been really helpful reading your responses, I have managed to gauge that it is not unreasonable of me to expect a guy to be a gentleman while texting as much as when we meet.

 

While I have the confidence to set some boundaries I just wanted to check these were not massively out of step with whatever counts as 'normal expectations'.

 

Thanks again lovely people =)

[blue]

Just goes to show, we might all be widowed, but each of us is still a unique snowflake!

 

Helen, for what it's worth (nothing maybe), my husband and I couldn't resist each other and had sex on our first date...and we were solidly together for the next 18 yrs.

[BrokenHeart2]

Thank you for the lovely reminder Fern! Yes we are are 'still a unique snowflake'. This Canadian agrees and I know all about snowflakes!!!

[Guest nonesuch]

What is and is not acceptable on first dates when you are in your 40s?

Well, you have discerned what is acceptable to you. The trick is to find someone with the same value system.

First sexual encounters, should I expect slow comfortable, straightforward sex, or are men trying to impress by serving up a banquet?

For me, that would be a clothes-on discussion, before we made plans to spend an entire night together.

How long do you wait if he is a nice guy but there does not seem to be a spark?

If I didn't feel anything after three dates, I'd say so. No point wasting his or my time.

Do all men expect suggestive texts before even meeting?

No.  Even people who do that aren't necessarily good at it.

 

I know these are a little like  'how long is a piece of string?'

Never long enough

[imissdow]

A lot of this reminds me of a guy I dated a few times. We talked about sex on one of those dates. He said "women get offered sex daily but any number of guys. Men have to qualify, have a job, nice clothes, a car, take you out, etc. so if a women offers me sex on a frist date why would I refuse. I feel like I hit the jackpot." I did not offer and after a few dates and lots of trying on his part he decided I would "take to long" and dumped me. I do not regret it.

The guy I'm currently seeing has yet to try and kiss me and I'm starting to wonder. We have had 5 dates. The last one he had a nasty case of pinkeye so there was no way I would even give him a hug. We seem to have a pretty neat connection so I letting it go a few more dates. He lives about a hour away and works opposite shift of me so getting together is proving tricky. I really do think it's different for everyone but for me if a guy can go more then a few weeks with me not getting bored with him there's something there.  I tend to wait a lot longer then most people to get intimate with guys. I have doubts about how good of a judge of character I really am so this might be part of the reason I'm so careful. However I must say of all the guys I've chosen not to be with I have regreted none.  I'm with nonesuch I think a conversation of all of it should happen before removing ones clothing.

I have found that the guys who sent suggestive texts were even more suggestive and pushy in person. For me that's a huge turn off. I really like guys to see me a more then a object and that's what all of that makes me feel like.

[tybec]

New to dating.  Just started in Feb. after 4 yrs., 2 weeks of LH's death.  So, waited a while compared to many.  All I can say is I need control, which you think I would have let go of a long time ago given LH's untimely death.  Our humanness just gets in the way.

 

That being said, I had a list of rules in my head of what I would and would not do.  I HAVE BROKEN EVERY RULE I MADE.  And I don't regret it, now, either.  A divorced friend of mine shared that NO one has walked in my path, so any advice given is always from another perspective.  I KNOW this, but, you still ask anyway. So, best advice, already given here, is to listen to you and your needs, wants, values, etc. and make the best choice for yourself and family if you have kids.  And be confident enough to share your wants and needs, and if they can't handle it, then maybe they are not for you.  Try to cut yourself a break when you need it as you have never been here before.  Good luck, Helen.

[Helen]

I know these are a little like  'how long is a piece of string?'

Never long enough

 

I HAVE BROKEN EVERY RULE I MADE.  And I don't regret it, now, either. 

 

You are all wonderful and I appreciate you greatly.

 

Guy#1 got dumped pretty fast, he was all kinds of shades of something.

 

Guy #2 is going very well just now, despite the early crossing lines by text, he has proved to be a gentleman, wonderful company and I really like him. We have had about 10 dates so far.

 

I am back now at the 'When does your date become your boyfriend?' question which has perplexed my previously, but trying very hard to just enjoy the moments.

 

Hope everyone else is having their needs met and their string is long.

 

[keeptrying]

I have to agree with Portside.  Perception is Reality... I know everyone wants world peace, to end hunger, and to change what the people think, but the reality is.. THAT is the reality. Yes, you don't WANT people to think that way, but they do. Slut shaming? - If you are going to act according to stereo type, than that is how people are going to think of you. Actions speak louder than words. I am not saying it is right or wrong. I am saying, it is what it is.

  If you are comfortable with it, go for it, but there may be consequences. Not everyone is opened minded to think that women are equal to men, (as far as ) to go out and talk like drunken sailors, get in fist fights, sleep around and act "like a stereo typical" male".. which hearing the phrase stereo typical male is slut shaming I guess...

Respect is the key. If you can find someone to respect you, no matter how you act.. that works!

I was always told that respect is earned, not given. I realize after the years of observing, that is not the case always...

 

What is and is not acceptable on first dates when you are in your 40s? First sexual encounters, should I expect slow comfortable, straightforward sex, or are men trying to impress by serving up a banquet?  How long do you wait if he is a nice guy but there does not seem to be a spark? Do all men expect suggestive texts before even meeting?

 

Wow ? lots of questions here. Here?s my take (from the viewpoint as if I was still dating):

 

The ?lady? offers sex on first date? Thank you very much!! Congratulations! You are no longer in the running for a serious relationship with me but I?ll call you whenever my hormones overwhelm my good sense for a booty call if I?ve been drinking, am lonely, or have seen all the offerings on HBO. I?ll keep you on the string until you wise up and start treating yourself with a measure of respect. Oh yeah, my mates will hear all about it to.

 

1st encounter? ? it will be different for every couple. That?s part of the fun after deciding to be intimate with someone.  In all cases, it better be respectful of what both parties are comfortable with or the relationship will be very short lived (or, at best, very unhappy on at least one persons part).

 

How long do you wait if he is a nice guy but there does not seem to be a spark? ? Ummm, perhaps forever? If you just want to get laid stick your head out of your window and make you wishes known. I?m certain someone will answer your call very quickly. Do the guy a favor and save him the $$ for the date.

 

Do all men expect suggestive texts before even meeting? ? No, no and hell no! If this is your experience you need to change the group of guys you?re meeting or communicating with.

 

Helen, forgive me and perhaps I?m reading the post wrong but from where I sit, this sounds a bit desperate. Guys can pick up on desperation from a mile away ? and treat you badly as a result. 

 

Take a deep breath, and start off but just sticking a toe into the dating pool ? you don?t have to dive in head first right away.

 

I'm pulling for you - Good luck! - Mike

[Taurus]

My late beloved wife and I had sex the first time we met and went out on a date, we "went steady" for 5-6 months before moving in together, we got married 5 years after we met and we stayed married for 3 days short of 30 years. Portside's comment is way out of order and reflects more of a teenager's attitude to sex-on-the-first-date and mouthing off about it to their "mates".

 

 

[Guest TooSoon]

Just checking in to say that it is ludicrous to make such sweeping generalizations so I'm here (with adp's approval because we discussed this thread recently and he was equally galled) to say that after a six month correspondence, adp and I slept together on our first date and we've been happily together ever since.  And I write this now, more than two years after that first date, to report that we remain very much committed and planning our future.  So, don't put your judgement and antiquated morality on us.  We're grown ups who can make our own decisions.  The patriarchal undertones here disturb me. 

 

I have never once in my life judged another person's choice NOT to have sex, not ever.  I might not have understood or understand it all of the time but knew and know it was and is not my place to have an opinion.  Why must you insist on this line of reasoning?  Do I think it is wise or prudent - male or female - to sleep with someone you don't know at all?  No.  But it is not my place to judge.  Nor is it yours. 

 

Different strokes, people.