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Starting to Tread the Deeper Waters ... between budding and fully committed ...


arneal
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15 hours ago, trying2breathe said:

I would like to make plans and not include them, and let NG know why.  Is it wrong to not want to include her too?   Maybe it's selfish of me, but life is too short to be dealing with this.

 

Yes, I believe it would be wrong. If you’re not going to include the daughter you may as well leave him out of your plans as well. You would be putting him in an impossible position.

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Thanks for the responses, appreciate the feedback.  You're right, serpico - asking him not to bring his daughter for Christmas dinner isn't right.  Last night I asked him if he thinks that she would want to be here, and he said that he would pretty much demand that she join us.   I don't think that's right either, and suggested that he let it be her choice whether to be here or not.  Trying to take the high road, and hoping that eventually emotions will settle and we can get along.  Fingers crossed ..... 

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trying to breathe as mentioned in another thread we have similar age kids to deal with. my son is the antisocial one, (although he doesn't specifically have anything against NG)  he would have be the one that would be miserable at gatherings, If asked he might have said no to something like christmas .BUt I too would have forced him to come,,,,in hopes that he would grow to like these things and because the thought of him being alone on Christmas would ruin my mood ,Now we are not  totally clear sailing yet but he has gotten better at enjoyng gatherings that include "strangers"(ie my BF or actually anybody outside of his brother and myself. Soo maybe hope that this time will be the turning point for your bf daughter.....if not consider it part of her exposure therapy that will hopefully make things good sometime in the future.

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Hi, all: I think it depends on the young person. I remember when LH 'exposed' me to his family events; I never got to like it, never appreciated it, and gritted my teeth whenever I had to go to those large family events. I tried my best to fit in but was never comfortable. Had I been a teen, I would have hated it. Like you said, klim, the idea of your son being alone on Christmas would have soured your mood, but how would he have felt? These aren't children who shouldn't be alone, right? Why would it have been so bad had he chosen not to go? LH's daughter had plenty of exposure to me as the girlfriend (and eventual wife to her dad) later. Thinking back, she never came to any events with my family and that was okay. She was about 14 or so when her dad and I got together. When she didn't want to, she wasn't made to. I'm asking out of genuine curiosity as I know I would have been perfectly content had my LH gone to his events to be with his family without me. Even as a kid, my parents gave me a choice, knowing I was always better alone (maybe, unknowingly, they saw a special need in me ... my son, who is on the autism spectrum, was very similar).

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It's interesting to get your perspective on this, arneal.  With my kids, I wouldn't want to strong-arm them into doing something that they don't really want to do.  Chores are a given, they're expected to help out with that.  But with family gatherings, I feel that it should be a choice whether to participate.  I've had conversations with my kids about how it's important to spend time with grandparents and show up, but I don't force them to do anything they don't want to.  For the most part they're both there for the major holidays.   My son is an introvert and doesn't enjoy big family gatherings, even with family that he knows.  My daughter is the opposite, very social and she loves big gatherings.  I respect how they feel, whoever shows up is fine with me - and sometimes my son isn't there.   

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If we were closer, trying2, your son and I could enjoy being introverts together :) Big family gatherings (heck, even small ones!) stress me out a good bit. I'm with you -- chores were always a given with my son and we had many a battle over that. However, it prepared him for being out of the house (he has chores where he is now), but when it came to the other stuff, it wasn't a necessary battle for me. I understand the value though of blending times and how it's important to make some sort of connection, but sometimes the 'big days' aren't best for that ...

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  • 2 weeks later...

arneal   My son would be in the corner reading - if the gathering was loud, most likely would move to another room.  Sometimes I join him :)  Yesterday we celebrated Buena Noche, a few days early - with the Cuban side of the family.  Thirty+ people, Cuban food, a wine tasting,  music,  I was happy to connect with family that I hadn't seen in awhile.  My son tapped me on the shoulder several times during the evening, not really comfortable in engaging but wanting to connect.  It's interesting to see him sitting alone and happy, my daughter in contrast a social butterfly.   Have to appreciate what makes different people tick, all good.  :) 

 

Happy Holidays, and for those that celebrate Christmas, a very Merry Christmas.  

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Oooh, trying2 -- I'd be all about the Cuban food! What people? Point me to the table LOL!

 

Hoping everyone is having a good holiday season? I know it can be tough for many. It's been interesting for me; I've been in prayer this year for guidance about life in general. As I shared, I got my will together, which was a major accomplishment. I haven't made it digital yet, and that's on the list of to-be-looked-at chores while I'm off from work, as well as getting a head start on organizing some data for a research project that I've been working on for far too long.

 

One of the interesting things is that my gifting plans went quite awry all year; I backed a crowdfunded project that I was expecting to have in my hands in June for BF's birthday. It's December and it's still not here. The developer informed everyone that U.S. shipping would happen between 18-20 December, but we received no shipping numbers, so here we are at Christmas day tomorrow, and I can't even give it to him then. However, he's feeling unhappy because he didn't have any money to buy gifts this year at all, so I guess not having something to give him is a blessing in disguise.

 

We did go out for Indian food yesterday since I said I hadn't planned to cook a spread of any sort. It was a funny (to me ... not so much ha ha funny, but ironic funny) conversation; he likes me to pick where we go. I replied that it was my suggestion, so he had to pick; besides, I had said sushi at first and he wasn't all that keen. I then left it to him. He came back with Viet, Indian, or as a distant third, the sushi. I told him to pick ... that it was like a date and he was taking me, so he had to pick. He was again sad because he's like, but I'm not paying so why should I pick. I made him pick anyway and it was a good evening.

 

One of my goals between today and tomorrow is to sit down with him and plan out some things for his business for 2020. I have myself an honorary marketing assistant title, so now I better be about it LOL! I was going to try and use our neighborhood app, but the people on there are just mean, so I likely won't go that route much. I posted about this salesman who came to my door and was sort of rude and one of the neighbors said I was complaining. I replied that I was sharing for people who were interested and then just deleted my post all together. I had said a while back that I wasn't going to put things on there because of a similar past experience; it's worse than other social media sites, in that people say anything at all and don't care about anyone's feelings. I don't have time or energy for that.

 

Anyway, I am prayerful not to do too much in general as this is BF's business, not mine; I think of it like we say about the students at work -- I can't believe in your project more than you do. However, as the girlfriend who cares and is capable of helping, I want to be supportive. In the end, one of my biggest prayers is that he'll have one of those moments where he realizes he either believes in himself or not and makes a decision based on that. 

 

I keep holding the adage, 'not my circus - not my monkeys' but when in relationship, that only goes so far :)

 

Praying everyone is well!

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Happy late holidays and Merry Christmas to everyone! Hope everyone was healthy and happy.

I was at least not alone, but of coarse hurt again by my kids. I have to stop asking myself what "I" did wrong, when they are now grown and 

do as they damn well please!

Still haven't set up a new doctor for myself, but I will this coming up month. 

I am enjoying the adjusting to the temperatures and being in the mountains verses the constant heat and humidity.

Wishing all of you a blessed New Year, and I will be back to update :) 

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Happy post Christmas.  Love the holidays but this year has been stressful, Dad going to a nursing home, my son deciding to pack up and move out unexpectedly, trying to blend with NG's family, decorating, cooking and gifts ...  all that the holidays bring.  Sigh ... have never been so happy to see December 26th.  I complain but realize also the blessings, high class problems most of them.   

 

Had a good Christmas celebration with family and NG, his daughter joined us for Christmas dinner.  She was quiet and mostly stayed to herself - I was too busy with dinner preparation to make an effort with her, not an ideal time to try and make a connection.  It's better with NG this holiday - he is here and we're together, family is starting to accept that I'm part of the picture.  Grateful for this.  NG's second ex arrives tonite with their youngest daughter, this daughter moves here and in with her Dad this weekend.  NG is super stressed, trying to juggle two exes, both of his daughters and me.   I tell him not to worry about keeping up with me - I'm enjoying peaceful time at home with my daughter.  Don't need or want to get into the family situation - too much chaos. This is why I don't want to marry him.  Love this man, but No Thank You!  

 

sudnly  Glad that you're adjusting to your new location, and sorry to hear of the hurt feelings with your kids.  

 

arneal    If you lived closer I'd try and snag you an invite for next year's Buena Noche!  Love Cuban food, adore the family and it's always a good time.  

 

Wishing everybody a good New Year's - no big plans here other than dinner at home and a bottle of champagne.  I'll be lucky to stay awake til midnight! 

 

 

Edited by trying2breathe
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Glad you're doing well, sudnly and yes, do update us!!!

 

I'd absolutely be there, introverted nature and all, trying2!

 

When's midnight LOL -- although we did binge watch 'The Watchmen' last night, which kept us both up until midnight, the first one I've seen in a long time ...

 

Ah, the blending of families. It truly is a thing, is it not. LH had one ex, and she was more than enough. BF has two (his daughters' mother and the woman he divorced the year we met) and they are ghosts, as I like to call them. LH is a ghost for me as well, since I of course tell stories about him and things that connect to him are all around the house. This coming February will be the fourth year he's been gone. May will be the fourth year since BF and my first date. I finally did a Christmas newsletter this year and mentioned him in it. He doesn't know that as we didn't talk about traditions as it were; I always send cards and I think he sent at least one to his sister last year, but memory doesn't serve me well. Nonetheless, it could be that 2020 is a year of deeper blending for us. What that looks like is anyone's guess.

 

Cheers to the arrival of the future!

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Enjoying some down time, tidying the house and putting away Christmas decorations.  My daughter will be here for another almost 2 weeks, happy for that.  

 

Blending families - yup.  Maybe it would be easier (?) to have "ghost" exes?  I'm on the fringe of watching NG help his youngest daughter move in with him, and have two exes in town - bio Mom to daughter and step-mom - to welcome his daughter and help her set up household in his home.  His daughter has a lot of support - all good.   NG is stressed and uptight, and not functioning well.   It's hard to be around him right now, I feel like telling him that I'll call him in a few weeks once the dust settles.   I don't expect a fairy tale all the time, but it's not easy to see this side of him - not emotionally available to deal with what's going on.  Makes me wonder how it would be if there was some serious issues going on - illness, etc.   He takes the escape route it seems when things get tough.    

 

Invited to my brother's for New Year's, I may go alone.  sigh ..... 

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trying2 -- so sorry to hear of the stressors. I'm curious about why both BF's ex's would need to be there because the daughter is coming to her dad? I mean, there's nothing wrong with wanting to see the place I suppose (a mom will want assurance that their child isn't moving into an unsafe or unclean place, after all), but to me it sounds more like he's allowed them to be a bit too involved. Did stepmom adopt the daughter? What's her part in all of it? No need to answer, just me venting; having been a stepmom several times over, I'd never do anything like that. 

 

I remember LH's ex. She often tried to ingratiate herself into our household. When I moved into LH's place, I didn't take it the same way; we weren't married, she would come with LH and her daughter, and it didn't feel intrusive. However, when I bought a house and we moved, the vibe changed. Our getting married was an issue for her, even though they'd been separated for a LONG time before LH and I met. I might have shared it before but he hadn't divorced her way earlier because he wanted her to take responsibility for her part in the breakdown of their relationship. She didn't. He and I talked about it because at that point in my life, I wasn't about being in a relationship with someone who wasn't willing to be all in with me (by divorcing out of a relationship that was long dead ... I can't say, even in hindsight, that I wanted marriage in the formal sense myself or didn't, but the idea of him not being divorced was a problem). She felt some type of way when their daughter told her that he and I were getting married, to the point that she called LH and asked him why he didn't tell her! He kindly replied with something like, 'why does it matter to you?'. Anyway, I bought the house before we got married. By then, LH had health problems and had essentially retired due to medical reasons; he didn't even want his name on the deed so the place was 'mine'. He had no problem, before or after we got married, with me informing his ex that her machinations were not welcomed.

 

Interestingly, I didn't have any issues with the first husband's children's mothers (three daughters, three moms ... sigh ... yes, I was young and stupid). However, for whatever reason, the woman he dealt with before me wanted him back after we started dating. If I'd had any sense whatsoever, I'd have told him to go on with her. She told him that I wasn't woman enough for him (she was older than me, as was he; I was a college undergrad when we met) and in truth, she was right. I didn't know anything about life. Even so, she had no dealings with his children ... I'm not sure she'd even met them.

 

Life sure is weird.

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On ‎12‎/‎27‎/‎2019 at 2:31 PM, trying2breathe said:

Had a good Christmas celebration with family and NG, his daughter joined us for Christmas dinner.  She was quiet and mostly stayed to herself - I was too busy with dinner preparation to make an effort with her, not an ideal time to try and make a connection.  It's better with NG this holiday - he is here and we're together, family is starting to accept that I'm part of the picture.  Grateful for this.  NG's second ex arrives tonite with their youngest daughter, this daughter moves here and in with her Dad this weekend.  NG is super stressed, trying to juggle two exes, both of his daughters and me.   I tell him not to worry about keeping up with me - I'm enjoying peaceful time at home with my daughter.  Don't need or want to get into the family situation - too much chaos. This is why I don't want to marry him.  Love this man, but No Thank You!  

 

 

Trying2breathe - I completely understand your last paragraph statement. I empathize as we  have to deal with (I think) a fair amount of divorce drama. I have to admit I'm super confused how to date a divorced guy. So I feel I will be in this middle zone of dating vs. re-coupling for a long time. I also don't want the ex drama and issues in my space, especially since my son and I are in a pretty good place considering so I'm also "no" on moving in and getting married. How do others deal with this?  How does anyone deal with dating someone with an ex constantly in the picture? I admit we should be grown up and mature (blah blah blah) but when you trying to just have some time together as a new couple with kids, how can you bond if the ex is interrupting continually? My NG's ex calls regularly when I am with NG and his son - even though each parent (who doesn't have the boy) has an evening call every day! Like on NYs, his mother talked to him on NYs eve and then was texting again and calling (several times) first thing in the morning to say Happy New Year (although she had the usual call later that day planned). When we were in NYC 2 weeks ago, she was calling and texting because she hears a lot of sirens in the town?!  Then when she is on the phone, she is rather snarky or they start arguing via text (while I sit there or in the next room) and then he may start to vent to me about things. I find it stressful to listen to and it impact the dynamics. My NG and I maybe get together with our kids once every 2-4 weeks, so cant we have 24 hours on our own? Is it too much to ask? NG doesn't seem to understand or get it, despite my rationally explaining. Its not like the son is asking to speak to the parent or saying he misses them?! I do EVERYTHING and handle  almost EVERYTHING on my own.....Do others (who are dating divorced partners) have the same issue where the EX seems to be in the picture a fair amount? Is that what is holding others back in the "budding vs fully commited" zone?  I get it for the big picture items (like school events, games, birthdays) but aren't divorced parents supposed to handle certain things by themselves? (Sorry, rant over...)

Edited by Captains wife
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CW -- Happy New Year! So glad to see you :)

 

I often wonder if it's a case of 'missing what you had now that it's gone' ... I don't understand how a person can be divorced for X amount of time and then when the other person gets into a relationship decides to be all up in it. How can they not see what they are doing is childish?!? Sigh ... I love your point about handling certain things by themselves. I also totally feel what you are saying about handling things yourself; my son was just shy of four years old when his dad died, not that I had much help from him the prior three years (children being 'women's work' and all ... can you see me rolling my eyes from one coast to the other?) and was legally and adult when LH died. Being an only child and on the opposite coast from what family I do have, hell yeah I handled it by myself. Could I have called some of LH's relatives? Sure. LH's ex wanted to be all sort of friendly to me once he was dead, saying 'I love you' when she was in the background and LH's daughter and I were on the phone. I mean, seriously ... to be around 30 and have your mom in the background when you talk to the woman your dad was with/married to for 16 years?!

 

Rant in solidarity with your rant over ... ❤️ 

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CW   Rant away, I get it.  How long has NG been divorced?  A constant ex on the scene?  No.  NG told me early on that it's an unraveling process to disengage from an ex.  If this isn't starting to happen after some time (I don't know - a year post-divorce if not sooner?) I'd try and set some hard boundaries.  It sounds like there are some unresolved divorce issues with his ex, if she is constantly interrupting.  Maybe she's trying to sabotage his relationship with you, to be spiteful.  Yes, divorced people should be handling some things on their own!! 

 

I asked NG several times when we first started dating whether he was getting into our relationship too fast, and he always said no.  Almost three years together with him, and he would disagree, but I believe he did get into our relationship too soon after his divorce.  It's messy. He would be dealing with his divorces and two exes chaos anyway and alone, and he is much happier coupled.  Being with him means that I'm a participant in the family scenario - even if I'm on the sidelines.  He is very willing to put up with added awkwardness of dating me and the drama of two divorces and his children.  I guess I'm lucky (?) as his first ex lives far away, he speaks with her very rarely and just on issues about their kids.  Second ex lives close - they continue to unravel their 10 year married life together, and live their lives separately.   Our first Christmas together, at exes request NG hauled decorations out of her attic and helped to decorate her house, attended Xmas Eve with her family.  I was shocked.  Three years together and it's much better now.  If it wasn't, I'd be long gone.  I have my share of widow drama - in-laws that he will never meet, the family gatherings that he will not attend.  Not easy, any of it.   For me it's a balance of what I'm willing to put up with to stay with him.  And he puts up with the widow drama that I carry, it's a choice for him too.  

 

arneal   Interesting to get your perspective on what Dad has allowed  - he lets them run the show.  He doesn't set boundaries or speak up for himself and often takes the easy way out, avoiding conflict.  But I think that NG's exes, so far, seem to be appropriately involved.  His daughter's bio mom drove her 1,000+ miles to move, seems right that she spends a few days with her daughter to unpack and settle.  Second ex (step-mom, didn't have kids of her own)  partially raised her two step-daughters and considers them to be her own.  There's some dysfunction - in a nutshell adults trying to over-compensate to these girls for two divorces and a lot of transition in their young lives.  NG calls himself "Dad Light" - takes care of his kids financially but hasn't been there emotionally.  So far exes are not interfering in our business, just involved in the issues with the kids.    It will still be a tough time getting used to this new situation, and I don't want to be the cranky girlfriend making a fuss.  

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Thanks Arneal - wow, just wow re: your experience.

 

My NG and his ex go to EVERYTHING relating to their son (separately but they are both there) e.g. Scouts, dentist, all games, sports practices, school meetings, school dances/events, some parties, Dr etc etc. My NG cant stand that he is not in the picture all the time with this son. I do all these activities alone, literally. Is that fair to my son and I ? Not sure how to think about it. Part of me understands and part of me is resentful. Shouldn't there be some boundaries when divorced people date new people - unless it was urgent, I would consider it rude to text, call my ex when I know he is with his new partner. I think its insane they both need to be at things like the dentist, all practices etc. but maybe that's my widow issue. And maybe that makes sense since their son is only 9? But it still seems crazy to me and its keeping me in the middle zone, especially as these two fight all the time. Its so stressful to listen to them talk to each other and deal with things.

 

PS - thanks Trying2 breathe - he's been divorced for almost 2 years now. I keep trying to understand and set boundaries (and that's annoying in itself as he should be doing this) but I don't know...he doesn't have the same view as me, clearly. He grew up in a blended family (I didn't) so he sees no real issues here - he says he gets it but since he wants to be actively involved with his son, he understands his ex does too. I also think she is trying in her own way to intervene in a negative way - I don't think she cares so much about her ex dating but I think she is resentful that the 4 of us have a lot of fun while she is on her own.

Edited by Captains wife
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4 minutes ago, trying2breathe said:

Going to the dentist together?  I don't understand this!  Maybe each is trying to out parent the other?  I considered myself to be a devoted mother and could not possibly attend everything!   

Agreed ! I do think there is a competition. Most of my town are married couples and believe me most events, appts are only attended by one parent. Its so weird. Good luck and patience to us all!

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That is interesting, CW -- LH and his ex rarely attended their daughter's sport events at the same time. They didn't both go to medical appointments or anything like that; ex had primary custody (physical?), so that was her deal. However, LH was there for some of the big things in a girl's life, just because of timing (like her first period ... he laughed when she asked him to go to the store for her; it was a good moment for them to bond as it was. He was an only child and was able to tell her what it was like for him as a boy, having to go occasionally to the store to buy supplies for his mom when she wasn't able to go out). For a long time, LH didn't go because of the drama with the ex. When the ex stopped attending, daughter would ask him to come; when we got together, she would as us to come. That made ex step up a bit, I guess one could say, and she started coming too. LH sat with me and she sat wherever else ... not with us. I would never begrudge them those sorts of experiences because it was about them showing support for their daughter, cheering from the stands.

 

Now, we had an issue when LH's dad died. I think I shared that story -- ex demanded to ride in the family limo. Came and parked at the house and everything to do so. LH and I lived together then. I wasn't about the drama so I left. Drove myself to the church and sat shiva so to speak until service started. LH said he wanted to walk in and sit with me; ex was irritated. LH insisted that I ride to the cemetery with them, so me, him, ex, and daughter rode together. She wasn't happy, but had no choice. As soon as we got back to the church for the repast, I stayed as far away from her as I could.

 

Different people, different ideas of appropriate.

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Um arneal - not ok for ex to ride in the family limo....but good for you taking the high road during such a time! I feel I have put up with a lot with my NG and his ex (in trying to think whats best for their son)and I really try and take the high road but it grates on me after a while. I know its nice for their son to have both parents there all the time but cant I have some time that's "ours" ? At least a day? Its such a different dynamic when she's  in the picture given her "bad energy". This interference including texting and calling when she knows we are together really is bugging me. I would be more respectful of space and boundaries. At least she doesn't turn up regularly lol! (only once when we were skiing...)

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44 minutes ago, Captains wife said:

Agreed ! I do think there is a competition. 

I have witnessed divorced parents in competition; it's not only ugly to the new partner, but most importantly it's damaging to the kids. My estimation is that through the drama of it all what ends up happening is the kids often become masterful manipulators, mentally unstable, ill-adjusted, and/or prone to a life of their own drama. I think this is partly why people who get divorced are often products of a broken home themselves. JMO.

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A man who continues to spend so much time arguing with his ex-wife needs some serious therapy about boundaries, button-pushing, and learning/practicing productive positive communication skills. That he finds all this normal is shocking- but maybe that’s what he grew up listening to. It sounds absolutely exhausting to put up with CW.

 

I mean, I’m usually all for being there for my partner, but I would be tempted to go to extreme measures, like the kind you use to train toddlers. You know, forbid him to talk to you about her for more than 5 minutes- and then time it, if you allow it at all. Ask him to tell/text his ex he is busy and will get back to her later whenever she interrupts. And if he doesn’t, then simply end the date- you know you gotta follow through with threats or they don’t believe you. It will SUCK having to do that, and will provoke disappointed feelings all around, but this shit you’re putting up with is just....unacceptable.  He keeps doing this because he is getting something out of it, it feeds his psyche in some weird way, and that would really irritate me being forced to be involved so intimately in their unhealthy relationship. 

 

 

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17 hours ago, Bunny said:

He keeps doing this because he is getting something out of it, it feeds his psyche in some weird way, and that would really irritate me being forced to be involved so intimately in their unhealthy relationship. 

I don't know about it feeding the psyche, Bunny. Having been in an abusive marriage my first go, it's amazing what it does to a person. You do things out of survival instinct, even if you are out of the situation. Maybe this man feels by not going along with this ex he will lose time with his children. I stayed in my first marriage, despite it all, because I was afraid that the first husband would take my son and he and his family would raise him, which would be abusive for him (my son has special needs and his father had no time for that, no interest in working with him -- feeling like it was something he could spank out of him).

 

I am sure there are some people who act that way because they do get something out of it, which would be problematic for sure, but I don't think it's the case for many ... Just my .02.

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