RobFTC Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Hey gang, Some of you may have heard of "Love and Logic", an initiative started years back by Jim Fay of Golden, CO. They are at http://loveandlogic.com. I am just a customer, and want to have a space to work out strategies. Let me explain. Love and Logic is all about trying to stay out of the way while kids learn from natural consequences of their decisions. When they make bad decisions, you don't bull in and react, but take time to figure out what you can say or do that has the best chance at making them realize it was their decision that was the problem. For young kids, you'd pick up the toy they left out and perhaps have them come up with a chore to do for you to get it back. For older kids, well, that's what I am trying to figure out right now. Raising a teen who's smarter and sneakier than you is exciting! For this to work out best, you need to have a sounding board to make your strategy effective - here's my plan, what could go wrong with it? If anyone is up for that kind of discussion, here's the place. Us wids have an uphill battle with parenting that often includes nobody to readily conspire with, and so this could help. I have seen good strategies work so well and so fast it's taken my breath away, and I have had what I thought were good ideas collapse in front of me. I commit to reading about your struggles and seeing if I can help out; this has been fun when I have done it in person. Is anyone with me? Take care, Rob T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugarbell Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Count me in!😊 I am in for a long ride with this teen stuff. Oldest just hitting teen years and two more behind him. I will need all the wisdom and support I can get! Great idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abitlost Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 I'm in! abl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imissdow Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 I'm in my teen is now 19 but being that she still lives at home I could really use a sounding board and some ideas about what to do with her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
widowat33 Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Great idea! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momtokam Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 I'm in! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trying Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 I'm in! My older 2 will be exiting their teen years as my youngest enters. any advice and support is greatly appreciated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trying2breathe Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Count in me too! My daughter is 17 and I would appreciate all of the parent strategies that I can get! : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twistedmensa Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 I'm in. I'm currently surrounded by adolescent attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmg19 Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Great idea Rob. My boys are 12 and 14 and I've been "trying" to practice this pragmatic approach to parenting since my boys were toddlers. Read the early childhood book and found it the most realistic and useful book. Now I need the Love and Logic book for teens since I sure do need a refresher course on staying consistent. Amazon has the paperback at reasonable prices. Looking forward to having a sounding board and discussion group of like minds. I'm in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobFTC Posted December 4, 2015 Author Share Posted December 4, 2015 This is illustrative of how far I have to go from my norms to how it should be. You will see how much I nag and remind. I may have gotten one thing right per L&L here. My girls take turns unloading the dishwasher, and putting in all of the dishes on the counter waiting to go in. Last night, it was Miss R's turn, and as usual, her time priorities are sketchy. She was reading her history text (while listening to earbuds) after dinner and said "one and a half more paragraphs and I will do that." An hour later, she was still at her desk reading. I talked to her about it (not what I should be doing). We talked about it being important she was not late getting into the shower and in her sister's way, so she went up to shower. A half-hour later, she had not started showering, and I talked to her about that (not what I should be doing). After her shower, she needed another reminder about the dishwasher (not what I should be doing). She unloaded the dishwasher, but left the dirty dishes on the counter (a bumper crop). On the way out the door this morning, I did the one good L&L thing and said, "Thanks for unloading the dishwasher. I see you chose to leave the dirty dishes on the counter. I was going to wipe the counters really well before your party, but there's no problem, you can do that after you handle the dirty dishes this afternoon." No opposition, which was nice. I have managed to set an norm that work deferred without a good reason can result in more work, but I could be more consistent about that. For the one-hour showers taken without regard for her sister, I am thinking I should simply say that anyone who has showered without causing problems for others for the past week is welcome to use their shared shower. Those who have caused problems have to use my shower, which is nice but doesn't have all the froo-froo stuff they like. I might even want to post a notice on the bathroom door. Thoughts? Take care, Rob T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abitlost Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 This is illustrative of how far I have to go from my norms to how it should be. You will see how much I nag and remind. I may have gotten one thing right per L&L here. My girls take turns unloading the dishwasher, and putting in all of the dishes on the counter waiting to go in. Last night, it was Miss R's turn, and as usual, her time priorities are sketchy. She was reading her history text (while listening to earbuds) after dinner and said "one and a half more paragraphs and I will do that." An hour later, she was still at her desk reading. I talked to her about it (not what I should be doing). We talked about it being important she was not late getting into the shower and in her sister's way, so she went up to shower. A half-hour later, she had not started showering, and I talked to her about that (not what I should be doing). After her shower, she needed another reminder about the dishwasher (not what I should be doing). She unloaded the dishwasher, but left the dirty dishes on the counter (a bumper crop). On the way out the door this morning, I did the one good L&L thing and said, "Thanks for unloading the dishwasher. I see you chose to leave the dirty dishes on the counter. I was going to wipe the counters really well before your party, but there's no problem, you can do that after you handle the dirty dishes this afternoon." No opposition, which was nice. I have managed to set an norm that work deferred without a good reason can result in more work, but I could be more consistent about that. For the one-hour showers taken without regard for her sister, I am thinking I should simply say that anyone who has showered without causing problems for others for the past week is welcome to use their shared shower. Those who have caused problems have to use my shower, which is nice but doesn't have all the froo-froo stuff they like. I might even want to post a notice on the bathroom door. Thoughts? Take care, Rob T Hi Rob, I didn't quite follow the shower situation. Do they have one bathroom that they share and each has an assigned shower time? If that's the case, it seems more logical to me that if one misses her assigned time, she doesn't instead get to use your bathroom but instead simply forfeits her shower for the day; having to go to school unbathed once or twice may be more impactful than an alternate shower facility. I have the same situation on the nagging, be it around unloading their lunch boxes, folding laundry, making beds, etc. None of these are huge infractions but I dislike having to remind them again and again. Sometimes after nagging doesn't work, I will give an hour's notice and say that dinner will be served to anyone who has done x, y or z which gets the tasks done but that isn't quite natural consequences. Suggestions? abl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trying Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Rob, I'm not sure I could've left the house with a pile of dirty dishes on the counter, that's the kind of thing that pushes me from nagging to yelling. Not exactly L&L I guess. As far as the shower goes, I think the consequence of using your shower may end up more of a consequence for you. The froo froo will start to migrate, as well as any mess into your space. How about she is not allowed to shower until after her sister and if she's not finished by a certain time the hot water gets turned off. Not sure if this is fitting with the strategies but I feel like behaviors shouldn't be allowed to impact other people in the house. What would be a strategy for dealing with my son's disgustingly messy bedroom? His answer is always "it's my room, just close the door and don't look at it". He is 17. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobFTC Posted December 4, 2015 Author Share Posted December 4, 2015 Hi Abi, yes, they share a shower, but no, there are no set times. They used to have to negotiate who would shower first, and that often enough resulted in fights due to Rebecca's flakiness and "I want to go first but I won't start on time" stuff. Rebecca now goes first by my rule. The normal pattern of late is that Sarah gets in the shower at 9:20 and is out by 9:30 or 9:35, and 9:30 is her bedtime. She deadline schedules it, but she's dead reliable. Rebecca's showers shift all over, and she never cares to talk to Sarah about shower times, so she stomps on Sarah's time fairly often. The goal is to sand off this rough edge :-) I have tried to say she can't shower if she is late, but the stinker has ducked in there super-late anyway, and then she's bothering her sister in their shared room. If I could really deliver a consequence for not keeping an agreement, I could try that again. The clean-your-room-to-get-fed is not unprecedented, but you're right, it's not tied to the infraction. An alternate: you go clean by putting stuff in a bin, and they do some of your shores to pay you back for the energy, and to earn the right to get their stuff back. Hi Trying, yeah, I have already had stuff drift into my shower. I did manage to tamp that down a bit by announcing that things left could be tossed out. Turning off the hot water sounds interesting, but I am not sure how easy that is with our plumbing; I may have to check. The disgusting bedroom, been there, still there. I have Rebecca cleaning it up because she is a repeat offender on food and I want to patrol more safely and easily. Prior to that, I was insisting it be cleaned before they had anyone over to visit, but kind of stayed out of it otherwise. I have cared more about them keeping their shared bathroom clean, as that is what guests would use. Take care, Rob T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abitlost Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 What would be a strategy for dealing with my son's disgustingly messy bedroom? His answer is always "it's my room, just close the door and don't look at it". He is 17. Trying, in my house technically the rooms are mine -- my name is on the deed, not theirs -- they just get the privilege of living there. Therefore, my rules apply to every room. That said, we have issues in this area as well, I just don't get that excuse. This is getting better of late however, for reasons I can't explain. Rob, I did try the bin method once and it was not particularly successful. On the showers, how about one showers at night and the other in the morning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobFTC Posted December 5, 2015 Author Share Posted December 5, 2015 They get up at 6 and are out the door to the bus at 6:45 - it's certain that nobody is going to shower in the morning. Except me, I'm showered and dressed (but unfed) and have a coffee in my hand by 6:40 :-) Take care, Rob T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imissdow Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 The biggest problem I seem to have is coming up with a consequences that are painful enough to do the job. Turning off the hot water is a great idea. If it's doable. missing a shower would be another good idea. In our house the last person in the shower usually got a cold shower. I told the girls if their showers took to long and I therefore had no hot water left then they would be the last one in the shower next time and I would make sure there was no hot water left. that worked pretty well and my girls figured out times on their own that they could have more time in the bathroom. We have 1 shower for 4 of us. So one of the girls usually takes a shower shortly after getting home and one right before bed. As far as the dishes. I am the first one up in the morning 5:15. I also head to bed sometimes before the 19yo does. If chores aren't done and I wake up to find them undone the offending party gets woken up and they do them first thing in the morning. I have been known to get up earlier if I suspect a chore won't be done. This has worked pretty well as my girls don't normally crawl out of bed till 6:30. I leave for work at 6:15. They are typically done by then. I have yet to figure out how to get them to keep their rooms clean. Any suggestions on how to keep my kids from fighting over the tv and seats on the couch. I have a couch and a love seat and both girls seem to think they have the right to one of their own. 3 kids 2 couches it never seems to work. The youngest is usually the odd man out. They don't fight with me I'll just unhook the internet and that makes the house a blackhole were nothing works and then I have the living room to myself, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobFTC Posted December 9, 2015 Author Share Posted December 9, 2015 Today's challenge - cooking. Rebecca and Sarah each cook once a week, with me cooking or putting leftovers on as needed on the other days. We have dinner at 6pm, and I am reluctant to let anything disrupt it. When I am late, I let them know. I can be very, very efficient to nail that deadline :-) Sarah regularly lands dinner on time, with some glitches when she has stuff go sideways. Her skills are not solid, and when stuff gets out of hand, she's not great at making good "what next" decisions or asking for help. But I can tell that she wants to do a good job, and she's sorry when she's late. Rebecca very often lands dinner late, sometimes well over a half hour late, with no apology. The basic root cause seems to be that she just doesn't give a damn and/or this is a good way to do get negative attention. As many times as I ask, she won't take the 30 seconds it would take to let me know what to expect. Today, she's cooking, and she said it would take a half-hour. She was in the bathroom until 6, so she's for sure going to be late. She hasn't communicated. It's harder on me now that I am dieting. I would like some feedback and more ideas for consequences for being late. I can reduce them if I get notice, and I may be open to an occasional "it wasn't my fault" if I buy it. Ideas I have had so far: - you're fired from cooking for being too flaky, so you can contribute by cleaning bathrooms and toilets weekly instead - not completely happy with this, because I want her to get cooking experience, and she does tackle new recipes often - you can cook dinners until you land a meal at or before 6pm - better as it taps the expectation that a task done later than expected might grow in size or result in another task added I also don't know what to do if she just refuses to accept the consequence. They need a lot less from me, so "energy drain" feels harder now. Yes, I need to dig into the books. It's been busy. Thanks, Rob T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momtokam Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 I like the second option better Rob. To me, it would seem more work for her. Dinner every night until you get it right instead of toilets once a week. More incentive to get dinner right the first time. If she refuses, I have no answer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trying Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 I also like the "keep cooking dinner every night until you get it right". I think it's great that they cook! My 17year old throws something I have prepared into the oven before I get home but that's about it. It seems like time is a big issue in your house, you like things on a pretty strict schedule and your daughter is a little looser with time. What if you acknowledge your different approaches to timliness and compromise that you will allow some wiggle room of 5.45-6:15 to be acceptable for dinner on the table? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimiRed Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Count me in too. I've tried the "Natural Consequences" too, but sometimes it ends up biting me in the butt. Like my son (15) running late in the mornings when he needs to catch the bus. I've been told to just let him miss the bus. But, without the nagging...hurry up, you have 5 minutes, you have 3 minutes...hurry up!, he'd drag his feet and never make it. My problem is, if he misses the bus, I end up driving him to school, so this "Natural Consequence" takes it's toll on me, not him. He still makes it to school. No way will I let him just stay home because he missed the bus. I guess I need to figure out which things need to be the "Natural Consequences" lesson? Rob, not sure on the shower thing. I have been trying to voice the "consequences" ahead of time and following through. You could say, if the shower situation is not under control in one week, I will be purchasing a timer for the hot water heater that will automatically shut the hot water off at 10pm and turn back on in the morning. This would eliminate the need to run to the hot water heater breaker everyday to flip it off or on. imissdow: Hmmm, fighting over the tv and seats? How about a first come first serve rule? If fighting persists, then no tv, they can resort to reading a book. If they know you can make the house a "blackhole", then possibly the fighting will stop if you disconnect it often enough every time they fight. Rob: I wouldn't fire her from cooking, that would be a task/chore that you are taking away from her. She may look at that as a positive thing. Can you discuss and give a consequence ahead of time? Tell her the day before, for every minute you are late with the meal, you must leave your cell phone/tablet (whatever she has) on the counter for that amount of time. So, if she's a half hour late with dinner, her phone stays on the counter for a half an hour, or in a place you know where it's at and she can't have it or steal it back without your knowledge. OR, for every minute late with the meal, she can sit in the chair, living room, where you can see her and do some reading, or just sitting, who cares...just somehow try to show her what those "minutes" feel like when she's late. My son is a huge procrastinator! He is late all the time, but is getting better. I have now made him leave his phone upstairs in the mornings and he can only have it back when he comes upstairs and is ready for school/bus. It's getting better, slowly, but getting better. He still pushes the limit though! I do like the "keep cooking until you get it right option", her sister will have more free time and she may not like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abitlost Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Rob, This isn't what you asked so forgive me if I'm out of line but I had some thoughts on some of the struggles you've mentioned. A while back, I think you posted that one of your girls has ADHD; is that R? If that is the case, her timeliness be it in the shower or the kitchen is affected by her compromised executive function and planning skills. It may not be that she doesn't care, but she is challenged to stay on task and could benefit from some accommodations to aid her. I'm not saying let her off the hook, but recognize that ordinary tasks are more difficult for her. Things like consideration and respect aren't excusable defenses IMO but maybe if she had a little more latitude she could perform better? Just a thought... abl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abitlost Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 SimiRed, On your son's morning procrastination, how about if he doesn't get his phone until he is walking out the door, or at a minimum has his coat/backpack, etc on and is 100% ready? That could prompt him to expedite his morning routine! On the mornings he misses the bus and you have to drive him, you could charge him for your time and gas to drive him to school. abl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trying2breathe Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Rob Your DD is bucking your system, for whatever reason. I think there's a deeper issue going on, it seems that whatever your rules she is resisting them. Stricter discipline with her is having the opposite effect than what you would like. I'm going out on a limb to offer a contrary thought. Have you considered making some adjustments to work within her way of doing things? Let her know that her efforts are appreciated, and emphasize the importance of getting dinner on the table on time. I'd emphasize how hungry you are at the end of the day, how nice it is to sit down as a family and enjoy dinner together. Ask what she needs to make it work - a simpler meal, more time, ability to food shop, recipe ideas. Maybe consider a celebration meal out, or something else that she enjoys, should she start to be successful at getting dinner served on time. As far as a consequence for late dinner, ask again what she needs to get dinner on the table in time. I do like the continue on until you get it right, although hopefully she won't have a stretch of days and days, trying to get it right. Kids are so different, what works for one doesn't always work for another. My two kids are as different as night and day, it's been a challenge to figure out how to deal with the issues of both. A struggle has also been their observation that things are not always fair - I sometimes reward one for an accomplishment, when the other effortlessly and happily completes the job. I try hard to have discipline and benefits work out equally, my kids and I have had many conversations about this. Good luck, and bon appetit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugarbell Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 SR and ABL-Yes I can relate. My 13 year old is horrible in the mornings...and yea if he misses his ride I am stuck driving him into school. It's a nightmare every morning (the 8 and 11 year olds are easy, get ready...he used to be too until hormones or whatever the hell happens when they hit 12/13. ABL-Love the idea about taking the phone until he walks out the door. I think that might work with my kid. It's worth a try! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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