Love and Logic strategies

[Abitlost]

Rob,

 

In my experience, there is no point in counseling with a kid who is resistant to it. If she's not open to it, there is probably no point.

 

I have tried your approach with lessons presented in a book as well, and it probably has the same effect. The message probably won't get through to a kid that is avoidant and making excuses for herself.

 

What is most successful for me is to catch them being good, the same strategy from when they were younger. Praise still goes a lot further toward facilitating positive behaviors than reprimand.

 

So the chicken was undercooked. How about the vegetables? Can you find things to compliment her on so the message isn't all negative?

 

abl

[RobFTC]

Thanks Abitlost, I agree that catching her being good, and being more forgiving about faults has been helping. We're thawing out a little.  I asked her to read a chapter about "Expressing Feelings And Scripting Needs", which I think could really do her some good, but I think our book time is over for now.  I have dusted off a Love And Logic book, "From Bad Grades To A Great Life" to reinforce some of my approaches.  I will probably be in this thread a little more, as I feel really lonely on this issue right now.

 

I remain concerned about her Internet usage.  We had talked about driving on Sunday, and then a friend's visit made us reschedule until Monday evening, when Sarah was going to be doing a driving lesson through the driving school.  Monday afternoon, it turns out that Rebecca "didn't hear about driving tonight", and in any event begged off because she was too emotional about something ugly someone had posted to Tumblr that morning.  Hmmm, if Tumblr can compromise your whole day, we could have a problem - you won't get to beg off school because of a Tumblr upset. 

 

Some sunshine - Sunday, Rebecca found out one of her favorite bands was playing in Denver Tuesday night (last night).  I figured we could do that, but when I thought about the planning - when do we leave, how do we manage food, etc. - I figured I would ask her to plan her event.  I knew she owed Sarah some money, so I suggested she buy her sister a ticket if she wanted to go.  I decided not to go, but drove them and hung out downtown during the show - it's the first time I have ever done that with them.  That was a little more than I bargained for - I dropped them off at the venue at 6:30pm, and when I poked them at 9:30pm, the band was just getting onstage!  I thought their band would be first, not last, but should have thought of it, I guess.  Anyway, they gave me decent notice that the show was over, and I was able to get parked and plug the parking meter just when they were the first ones out the door!  They loved the show, and they were happy with how well it all worked.  We didn't get home until midnight, so I am going to have to get some of that worked off, bwa ha ha! :-)

 

Take care,

Rob T

[RobFTC]

I have a parenting dilemna I would like help solving.  Not earth-shattering, but still ...

 

My daughters cook once per week each.  They are supposed to figure out what they want to cook, figure out what they need for it, and update a shopping app with the ingredients for me to buy.  I want to have some flexibility in when I do this shopping, and I only want to plan on doing that once per week.  They are supposed to then get the meal on the table.  They tend to cook on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

 

The reality is: they won't consider thinking about what they are cooking unless I give them umpteen reminders and set deadlines.  I really want to know on Sunday night, so I can shop that night or Monday night.  It's usually Monday after several reminders, and tonight Rebecca blew it off altogether, along with the trash it was her turn to do, because I wasn't around to nag.  Excuse me for having the temerity to attend my first annual HOA meeting in years.

 

I want to recast the grocery shopping as a convenience to them.  I want to recast their lethargy as a decision that limits what they can do or complicates what they have to do.  I want to have deadlines pass silently and ask about them later.  I want to have a way that putting a crappy box meal on the table is discouraged, which might be the toughest part.

 

I am thinking something like this:

 

- We need to talk Sunday if you're cooking on anything but your regular night (and that could be me needing to change it as much as them - Becca has a choir performance Tuesday and I have music Thursday, so both happened this week)

 

- If you don't get me the ingredients by 24 hours before the earliest cook needs them, you're cooking something from scratch without needing anything (good luck!), or you're buying the ingredients yourself without help form me, or you're paying to take the family out to dinner.  If you make a great case for it, you MAY get to put a packaged meal on the table with my approval.

 

- If you forget to cook at all, you pay to take the family out to dinner or you arrange take out.

 

I always wonder about the loopholes.  Does anyone see loopholes?

 

Take care,

Rob T

[Trying]

Rob I have always admired that you do this with your girls, you are teaching them responsibility on so many levels. 

 

Can you have each of them put 4 menu options on their phone and tell them if they haven't made a decision by noon on Sunday then they have to check the ingredients of one of their stock menus and get it to you immediately.  I know some weeks I just can't get myself to decide what to cook and having some standard dinner options to turn to helps.

 

As far as natural consequences I think having to "make do" with whatever is in the house is a real consequence (one I face myself at times). Having pasta and canned tomatoes in the pantry and  frozen veggies and chicken breasts in the freezer means there is always something I can cook.

 

One other idea is to teach them the benefit of bulk cooking on a Sunday. They can make a big batch of sauce and meatballs or stew and freeze in portions for several emergency dinner options they can pull out if they failed to meet your shopping deadline.

 

Teenagers will always find loopholes, it is some kind of gift! Ha!

 

As frustrating as this must be at times for you I give you so much credit for sticking to it.

[Portside]

 

I always wonder about the loopholes.  Does anyone see loopholes?

 

 

Yes, they have very little interest in what you ask them to do. It isn't anymore complicated than that.

 

As such, it will always be like pushing a piece of rope (or getting toothpaste back in the tube - pick your metaphor) to get to the point of which you consider a successful outcome.

 

All of us do what we decide is most important to us. This is where many behavior modification schemes or techniques fall apart in my opinion. It seems it's not important enough for the girls to take it upon themselves to consistently follow your program. Whatever their thoughts are, their actions fit with what is important, or not, to them. If you can ID what truly drives each of them, then you can build your requested outcome using the driving forces within the girls' heads. And then, they'll consistently do what you ask without prodding.

 

Rob, from my point of view, this isn't working for you and your girls. You are reduced to nagging.

 

I won't share how I do it in detail being that this is your thread but it is all based the carrot and stick method. It works most of the time and, after the kids grow up, they love and respect me. When we are in the midst of it, not so much.

 

My opinion is you need to institute some changes.

 

Good luck Rob - Mike

 

[Abitlost]

 

I won't share how I do it in detail being that this is your thread but it is all based the carrot and stick method. It works most of the time and, after the kids grow up, they love and respect me. When we are in the midst of it, not so much.

 

 

Mike,

 

I am dealing with noncompliance of household safety and sanitation standards deemed unimportant to my teen. Removing privileges and enforced consequences are ineffective, and natural consequences are not in the toolbox because they would be unacceptably unsafe. Could you please start a new thread to share your carrot method?

 

Thanks,

 

abl

[Abitlost]

I have a parenting dilemna I would like help solving.  Not earth-shattering, but still ...

 

My daughters cook once per week each.  They are supposed to figure out what they want to cook, figure out what they need for it, and update a shopping app with the ingredients for me to buy.  I want to have some flexibility in when I do this shopping, and I only want to plan on doing that once per week.  They are supposed to then get the meal on the table.  They tend to cook on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

 

The reality is: they won't consider thinking about what they are cooking unless I give them umpteen reminders and set deadlines.  I really want to know on Sunday night, so I can shop that night or Monday night.  It's usually Monday after several reminders, and tonight Rebecca blew it off altogether, along with the trash it was her turn to do, because I wasn't around to nag.  Excuse me for having the temerity to attend my first annual HOA meeting in years.

 

I want to recast the grocery shopping as a convenience to them.  I want to recast their lethargy as a decision that limits what they can do or complicates what they have to do.  I want to have deadlines pass silently and ask about them later.  I want to have a way that putting a crappy box meal on the table is discouraged, which might be the toughest part.

 

I am thinking something like this:

 

- We need to talk Sunday if you're cooking on anything but your regular night (and that could be me needing to change it as much as them - Becca has a choir performance Tuesday and I have music Thursday, so both happened this week)

 

- If you don't get me the ingredients by 24 hours before the earliest cook needs them, you're cooking something from scratch without needing anything (good luck!), or you're buying the ingredients yourself without help form me, or you're paying to take the family out to dinner.  If you make a great case for it, you MAY get to put a packaged meal on the table with my approval.

 

- If you forget to cook at all, you pay to take the family out to dinner or you arrange take out.

 

I always wonder about the loopholes.  Does anyone see loopholes?

 

Take care,

Rob T

 

Rob,

 

I've given this some thought. I am no parenting expert and have my own teen issues, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

 

I know that having your girls cook is important to you and, if I recall correctly, is one of the suggested expectations of the Love & Logic principle. But what Mike said about this not working for you resonated with me.

 

Your description reads like everything revolving around the meal -- from the planning to the preparation -- has become a point of contention throughout the whole week. In my opinion, I don't think it is healthy to associate so much tension to eating. For me, family meals are a time to reconnect, share, and enjoy each other. When I provide healthy meals to my kids, it is an expression of my love. Turning meals into a battle ground I fear could associate a negative connotation to food, with a plethora of potential unpleasant outcomes affecting their relationship with food, perhaps for a lifetime.

 

Still, I understand you wanting the girls to develop responsibility.

 

Bare with me…what do you think about dropping the meal expectation, and asking them what they want to do to contribute to the functionality of the family? It could be one prefers the mindlessness of vacuuming and bathroom duty and the other is willing to take on all laundry duties. Or it could be that when presented with options and given the ability to make a choice, they may choose the meals. But at least that way they could take ownership of the task.

 

I have never expected my kids to cook for the family. (I am not saying it is wrong…please don’t misread it as such!) But often my youngest asks if he can cook or surprises me by cooking. He scours the internet and comes up with recipes he wants to try. He will find a YouTube video about a cooking technique and want to test it. A couple times I have been out on a long bike ride and he has pancakes (made from scratch) in the shape of a heart waiting for me. Once he had a frozen concoction waiting that he found online. It is very sweet. His room and bathroom though…those are our (major) points of contention! Food though is our way of reconnecting.

 

I know you adopted the meal expectation long ago (when Michelle was alive if I recall correctly), but if it isn't working and is making everyone miserable, maybe you should look at some other options. This only-parenting thing is tough!

 

abl

[Mrskro]

Rob;

 

Both my kids take a turn cooking roughly one night a week.  I've tried meal planning on Sundays for the week so I can shop, ( we all hated that, because what if on Friday I really don't want chicken).  I've tried you have to tell me by x time on Monday so I can shop, (opps I forgot Mom)  and then I went with you can go to the damn grocery store with me and spend an hour wandering the store with me instead.  I'm lucky, I work from home, so if their ingredients aren't here, the minute they walk in the door from school they have to go right back out to the store.  They've gotten a lot better at telling me what they need, they've put a board up in the kitchen with a running list and leave it on the coffee maker for me most weeks, the stick of being dragged to the store seems to work for us. 

 

I also started a "Fend for yourself Fridays" when they were being particularly difficult.  I'm not fighting over food, so they had better make sure they have something available on Friday's because I'm not cooking/shopping/ordering. 

 

It only took a couple weeks of soggy left overs and hotdogs and hours in the grocery store to realize it was easier to give me a list. 

 

Now if only I could figure out how to get the 14 year old boy to shower a bit more regularly.  And get both of them to put their dirty clothes in a hamper I'd be a happy camper.

 

Wishing you luck

[klim]

Not sure how elaborate their cooking ideas are but maybe just shop for stuff, keep a stocked pantry/freezer of useable ingredients and say find a recipe that works with what is available.

seriously this is the way I cook....and it removes the whole get the ingredient list ready ahead.

 

removes one of the conflicts.

[Pammy]

I have recently discovered the pure bliss and simplicity of signing up with one of those meal delivery services.

 

But, I am lazy when it comes to shopping, portioning and cooking...much to my husband's dismay lol.

 

The particular service I use affords me the ability to choose from several meals offered each week (usually about 10) and also to tailor it to specific diet needs. (I am diabetic and have to eat a bit differently to others, but to their credit, the food is pretty awesome). I choose my meals by noon on Friday and the box, which is packed well and kept refrigerated for the trip is delivered on Weds of the following week; you can choose your delivery day too. All ingredients are included and portioned out for 2,3, or 4 people. It is just Mike and myself so we choose the 2-person option and we get plenty of food for just the two of us. You can also choose how many meals you want to be delivered. Of course, the price is dependent on how many servings and how many meals you want. So far the ingredients meet or exceed anything I could get at the local grocery store and all ingredients are fresh, the meat is very good too. As a bonus, you get these great recipe cards that come hole punched so you can put them in a notebook and use them for future meals if you want to go to the grocery store instead of ordering the ingredients.

 

If you decide its not for you, you can always cancel your membership and if you decide you don't want to use the service that week, you can skip a week or two whenever you want as long as you let them know by your deadline day.

 

The price is not bad either.

 

It's an option for you and I have learned some new cooking skills along the way with this, and at 58 I didn't think I could learn anything new when it came to cooking hah.

[RobFTC]

Can you have each of them put 4 menu options on their phone and tell them if they haven't made a decision by noon on Sunday then they have to check the ingredients of one of their stock menus and get it to you immediately.

 

This is a good idea.  I know that Miss R especially just claims to have no ideas, and I have commented that she should just pick a "greatest hit" instead of taking so long to think about it.  Asking them to stash some links could help make this an easier option.

 

Take care,

Rob T

[RobFTC]

I won't share how I do it in detail being that this is your thread but it is all based the carrot and stick method. It works most of the time and, after the kids grow up, they love and respect me. When we are in the midst of it, not so much.

 

I'd like to hear some strategies from you, as well - here or wherever.  I don't have good carrot ideas, just sticks.  I understand why my priorities aren't theirs, but it's simple - I need their help and I wear out emotionally if I do 100% of anything they can handle (look forward to my thoughts on them driving soon).

 

One caveat is that one of mine is dealing with depression, and I know that plays out as finding it hard to be motivated by anything.  That's getting some attention at last with a therapy visit today.  I'd like a lower-stress solution for her, as well.

 

Take care,

Rob T

[RobFTC]

I know that having your girls cook is important to you and, if I recall correctly, is one of the suggested expectations of the Love & Logic principle. But what Mike said about this not working for you resonated with me.

 

Your description reads like everything revolving around the meal -- from the planning to the preparation -- has become a point of contention throughout the whole week. In my opinion, I don't think it is healthy to associate so much tension to eating. For me, family meals are a time to reconnect, share, and enjoy each other. When I provide healthy meals to my kids, it is an expression of my love. Turning meals into a battle ground I fear could associate a negative connotation to food, with a plethora of potential unpleasant outcomes affecting their relationship with food, perhaps for a lifetime.

 

When they have a plan, their compliance is pretty good - they forget every so often, they forget to check all of the ingredients and find they can't cook, etc.  But those things happen to me every so often as well.  They expect to put dinner on the table another night if they miss dinner time by a lot.  I need something more automatic for the planning, which I can localize to Sunday.

 

I also want to plan better so we can have meals that interlock - if I roast a chicken on Monday and they can use that for something else, it would be good.  That's part of why waiting for Godot isn't working.

 

Bare with me…what do you think about dropping the meal expectation, and asking them what they want to do to contribute to the functionality of the family? It could be one prefers the mindlessness of vacuuming and bathroom duty and the other is willing to take on all laundry duties. Or it could be that when presented with options and given the ability to make a choice, they may choose the meals. But at least that way they could take ownership of the task.

 

I am not sure there is much they could swap out for.  We don't clean on a schedule, and I have in the past had a maid to keep the place up.  The cleaning is ad-hoc, and they do help when asked or expected.  They do their own laundry.

 

But more to the point, cooking every. single. night. just erodes me.  I can't keep it up, and really look forward to the nights that they cook and I get to just finish out my workday without the distraction.  It's something they know I need, and except for planning, it's been pretty good.

 

Take care,

Rob T

[RobFTC]

I've tried you have to tell me by x time on Monday so I can shop, (opps I forgot Mom)  and then I went with you can go to the damn grocery store with me and spend an hour wandering the store with me instead.  I'm lucky, I work from home, so if their ingredients aren't here, the minute they walk in the door from school they have to go right back out to the store.  They've gotten a lot better at telling me what they need, they've put a board up in the kitchen with a running list and leave it on the coffee maker for me most weeks, the stick of being dragged to the store seems to work for us.

 

Hey, I *like* this    I think this definitely needs to be an experiment I run, thanks!

 

Take care,

Rob T

[RobFTC]

A final thought from me tonight - I find that if they don't help me, I really start to resent it.  It becomes like I am living with the world's shittiest roommates  - they leave dishes all over, they watch me do work without helping, one won't talk to me sometimes.  If I see them try, it's way easier to love them and not keep score.

 

Take care,

Rob T

[Trying]

Rob, what I'm hearing now from you is that the dinner planning isn't just about teaching them responsibility, skills and how to contribute to the running of a household but it's also about helping you out.  That's a legitimate need that you recognize.  Have you talked with the girls about this part of it?  If they understand that planning and cooking dinner every night is a big stress on you and that you are more pleasant and relaxed when they share in this chore maybe they would be more motivated. 

 

Another tool I love is the reminder alarm on the phone!  Sunday at noon, first alarm "Plan dinner menu!" Second alarm 2:00 "get Dad your grocery list asap".  That eliminates 2 nagging reminders from you so maybe you only have to add one or two nags.

[Mrskro]

A final thought from me tonight - I find that if they don't help me, I really start to resent it.  It becomes like I am living with the world's shittiest roommates  - they leave dishes all over, they watch me do work without helping, one won't talk to me sometimes.  If I see them try, it's way easier to love them and not keep score.

 

I just want you to know you aren't alone here.  I am not their damn maid!

 

Nic

[Guest TooSoon]

Granted, mine is only 10, but I hear you about the depletion of doing things 100% and without help.  This year has been a bit different with Andy here some of the time but these last four years have been grueling, depressing and exhausting.  By the time M was about 8, I had learned to make sure I had certain things in the house - pasta, beans for burritos, pizza crusts, sauce, cheese, bread, soups - and when I simply could not manage one more thing, I let her take the reins and just fend for herself.  I have a weird relationship with food and still to this day struggle with "family dinner" - it will never be the same for me now, not for as long as I am still in this house - so letting her take care of it is both a way for her to learn self-sufficiency and it also gets me off the hook in times when I just cannot cope.

 

While I haven't had this particular parenting experience, I have learned in teaching that when one strategy isn't working, it doesn't help to keep hammering away at it - my students will dig their heels in and it becomes a battle of wills.  When I change my approach, students often more readily meet me where I want them to be.  Bait and switch, if you will. 

 

Thinking of you three. 

 

 

[trying2breathe]

Rob  Solidarity on the cooking issue - my DD is not interested, despite my best efforts to have her contribute to the cause. I find that she's just not that hungry at the end of the day - most nights she can go without much dinner at all.  Seems that she has enough at lunch to tide her over. 

 

 

When DS is home from school however, it's a completely different story as he's ravenous most of the time.  And he does help out with the cooking. 

 

 

Good luck ~