sibling rivalry/violence in very young kids - help!

[Mizpah]

Hi all, I don't know if it's ok that I post here - my daughter isn't DH's, but mine and Widower BabyDaddy's (WBD).  I have a kids question, and am hoping someone has experience/wisdom, but if it irks people that I'm posting here about a kid whose parent didn't die, I get it and will get rid of the post - just let me know. 

 

So WBD has a 4 1/2 year old son (not his late fiancee's).  When I was pregnant, his son was already very jealous.  He told us he wanted to "break her and crack her and send her on an airplane to heaven," etc.  It scared the $h!t out of me, but WBD felt it was just talk and nothing to worry about.  But son hasn't really taken to her (she's 1 now).  Wants nothing to do with her most of the time, and when he does, any physical contact goes from benign to rough to violently aggressive very quickly.  He squeezes her wrists, pushes her, etc.  I don't think he's just doing it for attention, because, for example, when he thought no one could see him one day, he punched her in the face (lightly - no damage at all, and she thought it was funny - I didn't of course).  He won't let her play with anything of his, and he takes over her toys and won't let her play with them either.  Of course, we give him time outs and instruct him as to the proper way to touch and play with her, but it does no good. 

 

A couple days ago (my breaking point), he threw a toy truck at her and it hit her hard on the head.  She was bleeding, bad at first, into her eyes, it was terrible, and has a significant bump/bruise/scab.  This happened with both of us in the room.  I'm worried that she's not safe around him, even when we're watching, but they're siblings, so it's not like I can separate them forever, and wouldn't want to (I mean, I do of course, to protect her, but I realize it's just not the way).  WBD definitely thinks it's a problem but also thinks I'm overreacting and that I need to let them interact more rather than policing everything and guarding her and preventing them from freely playing together, and that's how it'll get better, and it's his kid, so of course he's defensive.  But I'm scared that it'll get worse. 

 

It also causes major tension between WBD and me.  He thinks I "hate" his son, while the actuality is that I have come to see him as a threat to my daughter - I dislike his behavior (he also tries to hurt animals and other kids).  I don't think WBD understands the distinction between hating a child and disliking a child's behavior/choices/attitude.  (Also, the son's mother hates WBD and me, so there is no point in trying to all deal with it together in a united/consistent way.)

 

Anyone ever dealt with sibling "rivalry" that crosses the line into violence, with very young kids?  I know he's very young, and she is too so she's defenseless, and it'll hopefully change once he grows up more and she becomes better able to assert herself, but in the meantime....

[Pammy]

Mizpah, I get sibling rivalry. I didn't deal with too much of it with my kids, but I have seen it in action with friends and family's kids. What you are describing *might*, MIGHT, be understandable as just sibling rivalry that would go away as they age, but you mentioned this child wants to hurt animals and other children, that raises SUBSTANTIAL red flags and goes to the overall mental state of this child.

 

Your baby is the easiest target and that is why she is probably baring the brunt of it all. I don't think this is sibling rivalry, this is something much more deep seated. You should do some research on children who exhibit this behaviour (abuse of pets, siblings and other kids) and then present the research to his father and have a very deep talk about how to move forward. I would not let my baby (or any animals) be alone with this child for even a second. If this was simply sibling rivalry, I would have expected it to resolve itself by now.

 

This is not likely to go away or resolve itself. I hope you can talk someone into getting this boy some therapy, he is in desperate need.

 

Good luck, this can't be easy on you

[rifatheroffour]

First, of course you can vent and ask for help here, your are widowed and a parent, it's not a "Children who lost a parent" site. Not being able to ask for help here would be like saying "you were only engaged so you don't belong here".  So, my thoughts... 

 

I have four children 5 years apart, generally they do get along and I don't have major issues between them. There has definitely been rivalry at times and my kids do fight occasionally and #1 and #3 don't see eye to eye most of the time.  I've seen toys and other stuff thrown etc, even occasionally still in their teens.  But I have to agree with Pammy, "you mentioned this child wants to hurt animals and other children, that raises SUBSTANTIAL red flags and goes to the overall mental state of this child."

 

I would agree some sort of intervention is needed and possibly therapy of some sort if the parents are not able to stop this through everyday discipline.

 

Also wishing you good luck...

[Lisa]

Ages might come in to play here but I vote he gets evaluated. He needs some skills, for his sake as well as all of you.

[Mizpah]

Both of his parents are against therapy, so that's out of the equation, unfortunately. 

[Guest Lost35]

Mizpah,

 

Without seeing firsthand what is going on, it's hard to know what to do.  A united front is needed with you and his Dad, if that is possible.  Can you sit down with him and sort out what that might look like?  I have to say I'm a bit shocked at the amount of violence in many of the boys in my son's Kindergarten class.  I would not want that in my home, so I can understand, just a tiny bit, what you might be dealing with.

 

So far, the acting out I've seen (and some seems very severe to me) is coming from a lack of self-control and self-love.  Hitting others and hurting others is an easy way to express frustration when you know no other way.  As for hurting animals, I think most children, if not all, need to be taught to love and respect smaller creatures (pets).  I know I constantly have to help my five year old with this, even though he is mostly compassionate with all our pets.  It was a lot of teaching/patience/time-outs to get to that point.

 

Four year old boys are in a world all their own! 

 

You are doing the right thing by watching that your child is not harmed excessively.  Keep showing compassion and there is a decent chance that one day, he will follow your example.  It happens to me with a five year old and it's always pretty amazing to know that words actually do get through.

 

Finally, he must be getting ready for Kindergarten?  Here it is full day and they are treated like the rest of the elementary kids, in terms of expectations and discipline.  If his parents are not able to see an issue, you can be sure it will come out clear as day when he has to sit with a teacher and school mates for the day.  Schools are very, very good at helping with all sorts of adjustments.  Just make sure to be close to his teachers/principals if you can. 

 

I hope this helps... just so you know, I have seen enormous changes in the children in my son's class from October to now.  Even the wildest and most "violent" are now using words instead of hands and feet.

 

I wish you well with this...good luck!

 

-L.

 

[widowat33]

First off, of course you can post here..I don't see any reason why anyone would be offended!

My boys are two years apart. They argue, fight, yell and yes sometimes it does get physical..but they are the same size and close in age and are very evenly matched. I still intervene when it gets too physical. It is also reciprocated and not one sided like your situation. It has actually gotten better as they've gotten older, I never thought I would see the day when they would not fight all the time, but lately they have been getting along better.

I don't blame you for watching closely when they are together, he doesn't seem to have very much empathy or love for your daughter. If both parents are strongly against therapy explain to your partner that until the boy gets some kind of help for his obvious issues with your daughter, that you will be monitoring them when they are together.

I don't think you are overreacting to this at all. As the others have said hurting animals and others, especially those smaller and weaker, usually indicates some kind of problem.

I'm sorry I can't offer you more advice than what you are already doing and I know this must be a strain in your relationship as well.

[Captains wife]

Agreed on posting here !

 

Although my 4-year old son is an only child, I have had some issues with him in school getting physical with other kids. Its never been really violent actions but he does head butting, pushing etc.. Also, he is very gentle around babies/younger children and tended to direct his behaviour to kids in his age range. I have come to realise that this was happening because: 1) he has had some developmental issues with his speech and his frustrations were coming out in a physical form because he couldnt communicate fully, 2) I wasnt setting enough boundaries at home on physical contact, 3) he was used to having all the adult attention.

 

I learned this through a few ways - 1) I took him to a developmental pediatrition and had him evaluated/tested, 2) I worked with the school on what they were doing to stop these types of behaviour plus 3) I wanted to set a better example at home, including sitting him down VERY regularly and explaining in clear terms what was NOT acceptable behaviour. And I remind him EVERY day before he goes to school "no head butting, pushing etc." And it has been sinking in. The old behaviours have been getting better ! I am also trying to integrate him socially in other groups (swimming, science class, play dates etc) so he is getting more social interaction with kids his age and not just being around adults.

 

Given the age of your new husband's son, it is not likely a communication issue (?) but there seems to be some deep rooted frustration/anger there. It might be worth working with a developmental pediatrition if the parents are refusing therapy. Agreed that it will need to be a united front by both you and your new husband.  Try and explain again to your husband that you dont "hate" his son and want to help and maybe discuss options of how to best do that. His son's behaviour is probably hard to face and maybe he just doesnt know how to deal with him/embarrased given the sibling issues.

 

Clearly, this type of violent behaviour is not acceptable and hopefully you two can come to an agreement of how to handle it. In the meantime, I think its important as well not to leave the two kids alone in a room together. Setting an example at home of appropriate behaviour is key here, including repeating the "rules" of behaviour many times (no throwing, hitting, kicking) to young boys. There also needs to be consequences if they dont listen. IE for my 4-year old, a while back he head butted someone at school and then spit at them so I took his toys away for a couple of hours. He got the message very quick !

 

Wishing you the best, NONE of this can be easy.....

[SoVerySad]

Mizpah, I'm sorry you are dealing with such a difficult circumstance. While you aren't a biological parent to the boy, you are your baby's mother. If your husband wants to draw a line in the sand against counseling, you may also need to draw a line in the sand where your daughter is concerned. Their inability or unwillingness to consider there may be serious issues at hand here shouldn't mean you just have to accept the continued behavior towards your daughter.

 

Is he an only child other than your daughter? The comments he made before your daughter was born seem concerning to me. At such a young age, I'm not sure where he'd even get the idea of what having a younger sibling might mean for him to have such a negative opinion before she even got here. I'm wondering if the idea of her being a bad thing was planted in his head by someone.

 

It must be stressful to feel like you need to monitor all interactions between them. I would do the same thing until his behavior changed enough to give you more of a sense of security that your baby isn't in danger. Could you get him something that you can say roughness is acceptable with and that baby is off-limits for any roughness? I was thinking like one of those punching bags that bounces back up. I'm not sure exactly what they are called. Or maybe your husband could have set wrestling times with him where rough-housing is acceptable and not allow it at other times or with the baby. Just a few ideas...

 

My kids were 17 months apart and sometimes my son would get too rough with her if he got too over-excited. We would intervene to let him know what wasn't appropriate. But the majority of the time, he was very loving to her and enjoyed the time he spent with her. It doesn't seem like your stepson has those positive feelings about your baby.

 

 

 

 

[Max2507]

None of the violence is ok. It does seem like at 41/2 this kid has been through a lot. He has his mom that must have had some kind of relationship with his dad, then his dad had a girlfriend and she died, then dad got married and has new baby. Maybe his dad needs to make a point of spending one on one time with him and interject some lessons on how to care for others. Its a shame the mom can't get involved and work on it with you guys. It may help for you to spend one on one time with him as well, do you have much of a relationship with him? When I started dating my DH my son was 6 and was very short tempered and angry about it. Didn't help that my loser ex was also telling him all kinds of crap too. They started doing things together exclusive of family time, even just going to the store. As time went on they were so close it was like they were joined at the hip. Heartbreaking because my DH was really a dad to him and his bio dad is still out there alive wasting oxygen.

 

 

[Sugarbell]

Does his son live with you?or is it joint custody? Weekends?

 

No..your daughter isn't safe with him. He's jealous and it maybe just jealousy..he may not understand that he could seriously injure her. Or he may I indeed know what he's doing.

 

My 3 are 4 1/2 years apart. First two are 21 months. I can honestly say when they were all under 5 they were never violent to each other. Neither boy ever wanted to hurt the baby sister. I don't think it was in there make up. Now..school age they do fight and all 3 have traded punches with each other. No it's not good--and it's always provoked-they feel empathy and never push to the point of serious injury.

 

But this worries me about your husbands son to act our like this this young. It may indeed be nothing-a jealous phase. But it maybe something with him for life (I am of the school of thought that sociopaths are born that way..-

A chip in the brain is missing-the empathy part. And environment can help or make it worse...but the lack of empathy is inborn)

 

Keep an eye on your daughter. I understand your stress and concern. (((;;Hugs)))))

[Mizpah]

Sugarbell, we have him every other weekend (also one weekday, but I'm at work and she's at daycare during that time).  SoVerySad, he has a half-brother who is a few months  younger than my daughter, his mother's, and he lives with him "full-time."  I don't know how that relationship is, though, because there's not much communication between the households (except sporadic angry false accusations against us by her - I had no idea what I was getting myself into when I met WBD - she used to, I've been told, issue death threats against WBD's late fiancee (who was, by all accounts, incredibly sweet and universally adored), poor woman).   

 

Thanks all for your insight and support.  I was feeling so hopeless about this, and I knew you all would have varied and helpful perspectives.  It's frustrating and so discouraging, how limited I am in what I can do about this situation, but I'm hoping that over time and with effort, it will improve.  It gets me down, and I'm hoping it won't destroy me and WBD's relationship.  Ugh!  All of your advice is now in my arsenal and I appreciate it so much!  Wish me luck - I need it!!!!

[Max2507]

Wow, he has a baby at his house too? Try next time he comes for the weekend plan the whole time with him spending time with either you or dad with no contact with your daughter. Toddlers are very selfish by nature. He sounds like he needs attention and is displaced everywhere.

[Sugarbell]

Hurting animals--Big red flag.

 

I am no expert....and it may indeed just be displaced jealousy that he grows out of.

 

Just trust your gut...your gut instinct knows Something is off with this kid...listen to it.

 

4 year olds that are jealous may ignore the baby or act out to there parents for more attention...or call the baby stupid (my sons did all of these)...But try to really inflict pain on the baby? And talk about killing her and sending her to heaven before she's even born?

 

That's fucked up.

[Trying]

Mizpah, I am so sorry you are facing such difficult parenting issues when you have no real control over how to help the boy.  If they can't come together as parents in a coordinated effort there will be bigger problems down the road.  In the mean time do not leave them unsupervised in the same room for even a moment, keep gently talking to WBD about your concerns with an emphasis on you wanting to help his son and you want his son to do well as he approaches school age.  I'm sure he has some guilt that he has such limited time with his son and doesn't want to spend that precious time being the bad guy.  The problem is, his son needs help and the parents (and you) need guidance on how to help him. 

 

I hope you can all come together and do what's best for the boy and protect the babies in both homes.

[ieh21]

Of course you are worried, and of course DH is protective of his son. It is a very touchy situation. First of all, ask yourself what are your feelings toward his son. Do you have a good rapport with him? Do you show him any affection? Of course you'll act differently with your baby, but it's also possible that he senses this difference in terms of his relative importance, not in terms of a baby needing more attention. Maybe you are acting in a way, without even noticing, that makes both the son and his father defensive of the ties being built in the family. For the son, this is especially true if his mom is letting on that you're not really someone she approves. He's four and has a whole lot to deal with in terms of potential difficulties in family bonding. He has limited ways of expressing his fears and frustrations.

 

Maybe he needs to be given another way to express his frustration. If therapy isn't an option, maybe a physical activity, even a rough-and-tumble one. Karate or something.

 

Another thing I'd mention is that at four, I suspect that the violent acts are not done with purpose. I mean that he probably doesn't realise the difference in strength or in effect of his actions. Throwing a soft toy vs pinching vs throwing a truck isn't seen in his mind as "increasing in danger of physical harm". Same with words. My Eldest once told me that we should all die in order to meet papa up in Heaven before we get old. Clearly, she expressed words that were very drastic and scary and sad to me, but equally clearly, she herself didn't understand them as such. So I wouldn't pay too much attention to the words being used, but would focus on the underlying feeling they are expressing. Same with the actions.

 

Also, children develop empathy at different rates. It takes some of them many years. Many of the kids in my four-year old's daycare class still resort to pushing and hitting and I mostly see very self-centered behaviours. A friend of mine has an 8-year old who sometimes laughs out loud when his 4-year old brother falls and scratches himself. He doesn't have "issues", doesn't hurt animals or anything, he just hasn't quite yet caught on that this isn't the right reaction. My Eldest daughter is like that too. She's 7 and sometimes, her younger sister gets hurt and she doesn't react at all to help her. She's not generally mean, they get along very well, she just hasn't yet fully integrated the notion of empathy.

 

By all means protect your daughter, but also try to get them to interact positively. Get him to teach her big kid stuff, or involve him in the celebration around certain milestones (maybe he can help at mealtime to spoonfeed her for example.) You don't want their relationship to become all about how he doesn't like her and harms her. It has to be spun positively. Your DH isn't wrong, but I would say that at these ages, you can't really let them play together and hope they figure themselves out. They don't have much in common in terms of play, and neither of them knows physical boundaries very well (she's likely to pull his hair hard at some point too). So you will need to be involved and proactive, until they are a little older. They will develop a relationship over time. Right now, he needs to have boundaries set (it's not ok to throw stuff and he will learn with time only if he is reprimanded in an age-appropriate manner), but I wouldn't immediately jump to the conclusion that this is a harbinger of future relations between them, even if I realise it's highly stressful for you at all levels.