Lady Mary of Downton Abbey widowed for real

[gracelet]

Michelle Dockery just lost her 34 year-old fiance to cancer. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3360584/Downton-star-Michelle-Dockery-s-fiance-dies-aged-34.html

 

How sad.  her acting in the future will for sure be authentic as a young widow.

 

Pisses me off that reporting, such as the above, doesn't refer to her being widowed though. The term needs to be used far more widely, in my opinion, even if couples weren't legally married. You lose the person you committed to as your other half = widowed.

[serpico]

That is heartbreaking for her.

 

As for the terminology, calling someone a 'widow' if they hadn't been married would be like calling them a 'spouse' or 'wife' before the partner passed away.  It just doesn't fit.

[Wheelerswife]

As for the terminology, calling someone a 'widow' if they hadn't been married would be like calling them a 'spouse' or 'wife' before the partner passed away.  It just doesn't fit.

 

I don't think most of us would be any less devastated if we had lost our spouses before we had a ceremony.  The sentiment still fits.  I would hate for anyone here who didn't have the opportunity to get married to feel any less welcome to be a part of our "club" because someone couldn't extend the use of a term to someone who didn't fit the exact dictionary definition.  Being widowed young is isolating enough in and of itself.  Those unfortunate enough to lose a partner before marriage (or those who hadn't been allowed to marry legally) have enough with which they have to cope from family and friends who get the opportunity to dig at their emotions with the "at least they weren't married yet" sentiments and the lack of control over joint possessions and personal space.

 

So lets not get technical on a definition of "widow" here...

 

Maureen

[Mizpah]

That is heartbreaking for her.

 

As for the terminology, calling someone a 'widow' if they hadn't been married would be like calling them a 'spouse' or 'wife' before the partner passed away.  It just doesn't fit.

 

Technically, yeah, sure.  But here are two examples.  One's a metaphor.  I don't eat meat.  But I eat fish.  But I don't eat shellfish.  When it comes up, I could just deliver those three sentences.  But it's often/usually easier to just say I'm a vegetarian.  Why do I need to go into details and explain?  Is it technically a "lie"?  Yeah, sure.  But it matters more to me than anyone else, and if they're someone I'm close with and it's relevant, then they know. 

 

Here's the other example: my DH and I were not married.  We were legal domestic partners, registered/licensed with the State.  We wore wedding bands.  We introduced each other as husband and wife (him when we'd known each other two weeks: "I've been  married to you my whole life - I just hadn't found you yet").  I changed my name (legally).  He called my parents Mom and Dad and my brother and sister his brother and sister.  On our anniversaries and birthdays, etc., he bought me cards for his "wife."  Were we married?  No.  Is it technically a "lie" when I say he was my husband/DH and that I'm a widow?  Yes.  But, like the details of what I eat, it matters more to me than anyone else, and everyone who really knows me knows that we weren't married. 

 

I call myself a widow, and I called myself spouse and wife before he died.  It fits for me.  It fit for us.  I thought about changing my terminology after he died, but it seemed like an insult and a demotion to him.  It may not fit for you, but it certainly does for me and the people in my world, and I'd rather be technically false to the world than essentially false to him/his memory/what we shared. 

[Guest TalksToAngels]

I could never understand the I don't eat meat but I'll do sushi.

Lol I don't think it was commented to promote an argument. I believe in God but don't attend church.

I get bent when people say widows and not also widowers. But then it goes unnoticed.

[Mizpah]

I could never understand the I don't eat meat but I'll do sushi.

 

Not arguing - making a point. 

 

And this is exactly my point: it doesn't matter if you don't get it.  Why in the world would I want to have this meaningless conversation repeatedly?  It is of little importance to anyone but me. 

 

And yeah, widow/widower - it sucks.  Would be better if we just had one, genderless word for it. 

[serpico]

Okay, let me clarify...  In news reporting, reporters must use words that fit the situation.  They don't use 'widow' or 'spouse' when there isn't a marriage involved.  It would be irresponsible, because it's not the truth.

 

I'm not trying to tell anyone what to call themselves or their deceased loved ones.  I really don't care.  Do what works for you.  But I don't get the expectation that the rest of the world should start adapting it's vocabulary to fit certain situations.

[Wheelerswife]

Okay, let me clarify...  In news reporting, reporters must use words that fit the situation.  They don't use 'widow' or 'spouse' when there isn't a marriage involved.  It would be irresponsible, because it's not the truth.

 

I'm not trying to tell anyone what to call themselves or their deceased loved ones.  I really don't care.  Do what works for you.  But I don't get the expectation that the rest of the world should start adapting it's vocabulary to fit certain situations.

 

I have no idea why, in this venue, you bothered to bring this up.  It seems like it was just to instigate.

 

Maureen

[Guest TalksToAngels]

Sheep, I was not pointing out any direction l have no idea who eats meat fish or poultry.

You can't even say in today's society Merry Christmas, cause someone will get offended. It actually always concerned me more, when someone widowed re couples and seems to think its an antedote, to grief. But that's my hang up.

[serpico]

I have no idea why, in this venue, you bothered to bring this up.  It seems like it was just to instigate.

 

Maureen

 

Sorry you feel that way, but I'm glad I could help you vent.  Big squishy hugs to you.

[smm]

That is heartbreaking for her.

 

As for the terminology, calling someone a 'widow' if they hadn't been married would be like calling them a 'spouse' or 'wife' before the partner passed away.  It just doesn't fit.

 

It's someone like you on the YWBB, who quoted the dictionary definition to me to tell me my feelings of devastation were not valid, who stopped me posting on there. It's sad to see that this has travelled over to here as well. No wonder some of us don't post very often.

[Wheelerswife]

Sorry you feel that way, but I'm glad I could help you vent.  Big squishy hugs to you.

 

It seems that you are the one who needs to vent.  You offer no help to me whatsoever in this situation.  I'm truly widowed - dictionary definition - twice.  I have empathy for those who may feel slighted by your need to be correct.

 

Maureen

[THATgurl]

Hey y'all - quoting myself from another fun time the group had this conversation fairly recently with very minor editing.

 

I understand this is a touchy subject. I am sorry if my thoughts make anyone want to punch me in the nose.

 

From my understanding, a widow/er is one who has lost their SPOUSE to death.

 

Also from my understanding, one can become a spouse through marriage, civil union, domestic partnership or common-law marriage.

 

So paperwork can make you a spouse. In the case of common-law marriage, activities such as living as spouses and holding one another out as spouses can also make you a spouse.

 

In this sense, I do not qualify as a widow. Outside this board, I never use the word. However, I would never say "my boyfriend died". It is not like I lost someone that I went out for snacks with a few times. So, I say my fiance died. That works for me, but wording gets tricky. Many (myself included) are not big fans of the concept of marriage. In that sense, anyone committed to a lifetime of walking this journey with someone they lose is a "widow/er", including myself. 

 

I guess, if the word "widow/er" best portrays the loss, it makes sense to use it unless and until we come up with better terminology.

 

I know it can be very hard to do in times of deep sadness and grief, but please try to remember that we don't have to give random strangers on the internet the power to tear us down.  No one is going to turn back (or speed up for that matter) the hands of time or societal evolution by trying to impose their own thoughts and beliefs on everyone in a widow/er support group.  MOST MEMBERS of this group will respond to posts made by people who identify themselves as widowed with kindness and respect despite any differences they may have.  Some won't for some reason.  I feel sorry for them.

 

Happy Holidays and Frohe Weihnachten (happy blessed or holy nights)

[THATgurl]

Michelle Dockery just lost her 34 year-old fiance to cancer. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3360584/Downton-star-Michelle-Dockery-s-fiance-dies-aged-34.html

 

How sad.  her acting in the future will for sure be authentic as a young widow.

 

Pisses me off that reporting, such as the above, doesn't refer to her being widowed though. The term needs to be used far more widely, in my opinion, even if couples weren't legally married. You lose the person you committed to as your other half = widowed.

 

Tragic news for Ms. Dockery and all their loved ones.  Always sad to see another so young join our ranks.  My thoughts go out to Ms. Dockery tonight on her 34 birthday as she prepares to lay her love to rest tomorrow.  May the holidays go gently for the families.

[fairlanegirl]

Michelle Dockery just lost her 34 year-old fiance to cancer. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3360584/Downton-star-Michelle-Dockery-s-fiance-dies-aged-34.html

 

How sad.  her acting in the future will for sure be authentic as a young widow.

 

Poor thing - ironically, if I may use the term, we've just had what I think was the sixth and final series here  (NZ) apart from the upcoming Christmas special?

[serpico]

I seem to be outnumbered again, but I want to clarify something here. The OP objected to the fact that the news story didn't refer to Ms. Dockery as a widow. I merely pointed out that the word 'widow' didn't apply in this case, and later stated that a reporter isn't going to use that word unless the couple had been married.

[THATgurl]

Listening to this beautiful album and thought this would be fitting here.  May well bring tears.

 

Stop all the Clocks - Nemo Shaw

 

[Lisa]

Ok. Tnis post has bern reported for the sniping.  Lets please be extra civil as I do not like to be a heavy handed moderator.

in this community, anyone who lost the their significant other is considered  widowed if that is how they identify.  No debate. I understand in the technical world of journalism they would not use the term in this case. Maybe someday that will change. We can still feel sad. Sometimes we dont need to set our heels in on a position. Lets assume best intentions and move forward without alienating anyone. Thank you.

[gracelet]

Yikes. I'm sorry things kicked off in this thread. That's not my intention at all.

 

I just don't like the way reporting, at least over here in the UK, subtly changes approach and tone depending on the legality status. It's almost as if it's implying that it's not as bad to lose your fianc? as it is to losing your legal spouse.

 

Me being hyper sensitive perhaps. Although my marriage was recognised in the eyes of the law, I wasn't 'widowed' in the eyes of some because I'm gay. Just saying. Let's not kick off on a debate about gay widows (because you know who will win :-p )

[Catnip]

I am an older one here. I was married for 26 years and have 3 sons. I guess I was lucky. Yes, I count my blessings. But, I truly believe in the institution of marriage. For me, it hurts when I see others trash it as if it?s such a bad thing to be married, and take the vows of marriage so lightly.  Many of us have worked hard on being, and staying married. Yes, I understand many never got the chance to make it to their wedding day. I?m very sorry that never walking down the aisle was another loss for you. Yes, I understand there are those who never wanted to get married for whatever reasons and don?t want ?that piece of paper? as if it?s a bad thing to have.  But please be more open to those who chose to get married. It hurts me to see people criticize marriage. For me, it?s not only the legal issues in the eyes of the state, but being married is also recognized in the eyes of the church. The term ?widow? does indicate someone was once married.

 

Marriage is a choice. But the timing of a death ruins plans. It seems that this post is fighting over who ?earns? the title of widow. Arguing over whose grief is worse, a married person or non married person is going no place. No one wins on this. The end result was the same ? we all lost the one person in the whole wide world who meant the world to us. My heart goes out to all of us who have had to experience this loss.

 

[hachi]

I think part of the problem is the limits of the English language in general. There just simply isn't a term for one who has lost the person in the whole wide world who meant the world to us.

 

If there was, we could use it. Why is it that we can label or describe so many things, but not this? I remember a discussion, I don't know which board it was from but it was about the Portuguese word "saudade" - but it is not a proper noun, I don't think,

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudade

[Guest TooSoon]

"Poor thing - ironically, if I may use the term, we've just had what I think was the sixth and final series here  (NZ) apart from the upcoming Christmas special?"

 

 

NO SPOILERS!!!!!!

[Guest TheOtherHalf]

Catnip,

 

Not sure if you've read my many bitter lamentations on marriage or not, but your post makes me want to be clear about how I feel about the institution itself.

 

My truthful feeling is that it's not ideal, but we don't have a better system yet.  I am faithful to this institution in a ten commandments way. No fornication and no adultery. A woman, any woman, even my worst enemy could trust with her husband.

 

Sorry to be off topic, but in the event that I left an impression that isn't entirely accurate, I wanted to clear that up. Plus I really fought hard for my own marriage - and failed. Failed the first time too, despite fighting hard for that one and following all the rues in both cases. So, yeah, I've been a little bitter to say the least. But celibate though.

 

Sorry for the digression.

[THATgurl]

I would like to clarify that I should have said I am not a fan of marriage FOR MYSELF.  This does not and did not impact my ability to commit for the long haul nor does it lessen the worth, value, or meaning of my relationship.  A good example of what I am talking about is Goldie Hawn and Kurt Russel who have been together for over 30 years.  I very much respect people who have a different view on that and who place great importance on a marriage ceremony and vows for themselves.  I expect the same in return in a civil and mutually supportive conversation.

 

To clarify again - the legal and dictionary definition of a widow/er is someone who has lost a spouse.  Two people can become spouses without any type of marriage ceremony or exchange of vows.  Interestingly, even in the United States things that would make people spouses in one jurisdiction might not in another jurisdiction (eg common law marriage).  Restricting the use of the term widow/er to those who have had a marriage ceremony in which they exchange vows is no more in line with the legal and dictionary definitions than extending the use of the term to include those who don't meet the criteria to be legally classified as widow/ers.

 

I totally agree that we should not be attempting to one up each other in terms of whose grief is worse - it is all just terrible.  I also really wish we didn't get caught up in discussions of who should be called a widow/er.  I think the community consensus in recent history is that this is a group for "widdas" and that people are not just tolerated as long as they know their place sort of thing, but rather are accepted as full members of the community with equal worth and value.

[Mizpah]

I also really wish we didn't get caught up in discussions of who should be called a widow/er.

 

Sorry, all (serpico included!) - I obviously have some hangups and issues about terminology based on my (and many of my young wid friends') complicated situation (example: in my State, DH was on my insurance based on our legal status and I was allowed to make medical decisions, but I wasn't allowed to take him off of my medical insurance or to get his medical records to prove that he was dead so he could be off my insurance, because we weren't married - dealing with the logistical aftermath of his death was absurd and nightmarish, and felt like several slaps in the face when I could least handle them). 

 

I'm clearly a bit oversensitive to this (still, 4 1/2 years later!) and that's no one's fault here, and I'm sorry for inflicting it on you!  Carry on.  I'll be chill, I promise.