marital status - never used to care

[Guest TalksToAngels]

^^^^^

[BrokenHeart2]

Ok you 2 previous old farts... She is young!  I'm old too so don't rag on me. I get what she is upset about.  He needs to grow up and step up!

[Guest TalksToAngels]

I read original post. If there is no room for convincing the guy it will assuredly put a damper on him if he feels pressured. Anyway I'm not so old and hang w people half my age who have trouble keeping up ; )

[Guest nonesuch]

The legal aspects and estate issues could be complicated if you aren't married? 

 

The bottom line for me is:  marriage makes you each other's next of kin.  It's not a solution for everything, but it does cover a lot of the situations.

 

I would have reservations about having a child with someone who couldn't commit to be my partner.  I know that vow can and is un-done all the time, but at the point of marriage, the intent is there.  That being said, maybe it's time to look at what marriage would legally change, and see to it that you and the babe have some of those protections without the marriage license.  Are you buying a house together?  Do you have rights of survivorship on the deed?  Have you made out new wills?  Do you have a durable power of attorney?

 

I had a neighbor whose marriage broke up.  In telling us how things devolved, she recounted how she moved in with him, and told him she wouldn't live with him forever, and that after a year they should be able to make a decision on marriage.  But after you've lived together for a time, separating gets harder and harder, even if it is in your best long-term interest.  She hypothesized that after a year, he was no more certain than he'd been 12 months before, but figured he'd look like a jerk if he wanted out, so he took the path of least resistance and got married.

 

You don't have to stay to competently co-parent the child. If YOU want someone to make that commitment to you, it's okay to leave and seek that out. 

 

 

 

[Guest TalksToAngels]

She says she loves the guy and others write well if he doesn't commit leave and find someone else, is it really that easy ? I seem to be missing the point.

May just be me : /

[BrokenHeart2]

It's not just you TTA. Me too. Nothing is black and white. Unless it's just us two that think this way. Mizpah, I hope you find your answers.

On Thursday Mizpah thanked us all for letting her talk this out.

Hmmm, maybe she done talking about it. Just sayin.

[Mizpah]

Hi guys, didn't mean to start a controversy/fight.  I hear what each of you is saying - I think most advice and opinion comes from the lens/experience/feelings/opinion of the person giving it (myself included, I'm not trying to be dismissive or insulting).

 

In response to a few things. 

 

- I'm not trying to convince him.  I don't WANT to *convince* him, which is in a way why I'm so upset by this.  I feel that it's a done deal, the marriage issue, because I want him to naturally from within himself and from love for me, WANT to marry me.  And he just doesn't.  It's more about that desire/impulse than about the actual institution/legal status for me.  It's about reciprocity of a feeling.  For me, I've never really cared about marriage.  With DH, I was willing and fine with it because I felt like - in all the ways two people can be together and united and bound in this life, I want to be that with him.  And I feel that way about widower babydaddy now.  And I wish he felt that way about me.  But he doesn't.  There is no convincing of that.  Maybe one day he'll marry me.  But I'll always know that I wanted to and he didn't.  Nothing will ever change that.  He's already made himself known.  And it's kinda broken my heart. 

 

- As for legal status, I feel like maybe I should've learned my lesson from losing DH, but haven't, because honestly the legal status isn't the thing that bothers me.  It really should.  Maybe I'm being irresponsible. 

 

- As for why we had the baby first and didn't do marriage first....  We were in a long distance relationship.  We didn't intend to fall in love.  It was just starting to get serious and we were just starting to contemplate our future when I found out I was pregnant.  It wasn't a planned pregnancy.  Within a couple months of finding out, we'd decided I'd relocate to live with him (he doesn't have geographic flexibility for a few reasons and I did). 

 

- TTA, yeah, it's not that easy to say he's not committing so I should leave and find someone else.  That's exactly my dilemma.  I feel like I have to make that decision: accept a situation in which I want more, or leave the man I want to be with.  It's a lose/lose choice for me, I feel.  I *HATE* the feeling of not knowing what to do, of not knowing which is the better option.  I can't imagine staying, in the absence of him reciprocating my feelings, being his girlfriend forever and nothing more, and I can't imagine leaving a relationship I want because he won't marry me (or eventually might/will but didn't initially want to).  Blah. 

[Forgottenwife]

Hi Mizpah. I am at work so I will just fire this off because I don't have time to formulate a post.

 

I haven't weighed in here but I am in a very similar situation. I am living with my chapter 2 and he is wonderful and loving and he has made it quite clear that he is not ever interested in marrying me.

 

I don't want to just leave. I love him. I can relate 100% to your saying that it breaks your heart. Its like he just doesn't want me to be his wife. He asked me once if it was that important to me and if it was, he would think about doing it for me and I refused that crappy and hurtful offer. I told him the only way I would ever get married again is if he couldn't wait for me to be his wife, and he just does not feel that way. We have talked about it quite openly, he says it is not me, he never wants to officially marry anyone again. He sees no reason to do that (we are older and cannot have any more children and we both have kids from previous marriages.) To hear my lover say he will not marry me is painful. I refuse to discuss it anymore, it just hurts too much. I have come to a peace with it. I understand too that its not that you may be able to 'get him to marry you,' its that he doesn't want it on his own. For that reason, I don't ask my lover anymore. I'll keep my accounts and estate separate. It sucks.

 

I could just go on and on. When people assume we are husband and wife (and they do all the time) he says he likes it because we are comfortable together. And, he says he is completely committed to me, and he is loving and acts committed to me. It seems weird that he would want to be with me while I carry another mans name? Nope. He doesn't seem fazed.

 

It would be so easy for me 'to just leave' as people say, but its not. And I am building a life with him more and more each week we are together. Its hard. I think you are brave for putting this out on the forum. I am just too chicken shit, I take it way too personally when people offer opinions sometimes. I wanted you to know I get it. From one widda to another, I get it. It hurts.

 

Take care.

[Mrskro]

I'm going to play devils advocate.  I DON'T ever want to remarry  EVER.  I have issues surround step families and blending and a host of other issues.  But I do think I will eventually be ready for a committed relationship.  I don't think the one is any more or less of a commitment.    I have seen a huge number of marriages dissolve into hatred and animosity and horribly situations.  I have seen committed loving relationships without marriage going on for years.

 

Mizpah, I can completely understand why this hurts though.  My only advice, I'm not in your situation, but maybe step back and see if it is that he isn't commitment or just a lack of wanting the paper?  Unfortunately, only you can answer if it will be enough  and I'm so sorry you are going through this.

 

Now I will also say knowing how I feel, I had an ex try and get back together with me awhile ago, but knowing he has always, will always want a marriage, I turned him down (although he hasn't given up ) because I don't think its fair to him,

[Guest TalksToAngels]

I can't offer advise other than what was said to me. If someone feels pressured it usually has an opposite negative effect. You can't change people's feelings. Only say or tell how you are feeling. The rest is up to them.

[Guest nonesuch]

It would be so easy for me 'to just leave' as people say, but its not.

 

No, it isn't easy, and I suspect no one actually thinks it is. 

 

I was married to an alcoholic.  I *thought* about leaving during the last few years of our marriage. In fact, the very day I decided to leave, he told me he was terminally ill.

 

I can tell you there was a whole lot of shoulda-woulda-coulda going through my head during his illness and after his death.  It's hard getting out there and dating at all. (Preaching to the choir, there)  Doing so as a woman in her 50s means that the ratio of available men to available women is not in the woman's favor.

 

I'm not a shrink, nor do I play one on TV, but Mizpah, you've stated that you feel more invested in the relationship than your partner. "It's about mutual, reciprocal feelings - I can say to him I want to be with him forever, and he's not saying the same... I was way more invested in our relationship and that I did a lot more of the work/giving in the family/household/relationship, and felt neglected and taken for granted."

 

For some people marriage IS how they declare that commitment. 

 

"It seems stupid to leave a relationship I want to be in for a technical status, but I'm actually considering it."  No, it sounds like you are considering it because you are more invested in the relationship than he is.  Maybe IF he were more invested, THEN you might not care about the technical status? 

[Guest TalksToAngels]

^*^ agree.

I can tell you that although it seems women far outnumber men the people in their post mid ages are few and far as far as wanting a sincere relationship regardless of gender. Their are more single people than ever stats due to divorce and death. The number of people remarrying is at a staggering low. I have thought more than once of it, have been asked several times and my situation hinders me from it for the fact of my deceased Wife's SS. I stand to be able to retire in a few years, with no financial worries. To give that up would be foolish, however telling someone single who wants or feels the need to remarry, won't get it. So by not leading some of them on, several moved on. Hey that's ok. When I felt pressured it was just as well. I can do what I want, go out anytime, and I still have beautiful memories of my Wife. Sometimes lonely, but loneliness is worse with someone who makes you feel all alone. Mitz, hoping you can make the decision which is best for you.

[Catnip]

Me again.

I'm Catholic, older, and I was involved in that discussion on the old board about marriage vs not being married. My view is still the same, I believe in the institution of marriage.

 

But in this case, I'm more concerned about the child. It was not her fault that she was not planned. May she never find that out. But having two parents is very important. No, it's not necessary. A daughter can be raised without a father, but it's nice to have one, as those of us know what it's like to raise children without our spouse. But if you have an involved father, I hope you do what is best for the child. She should be your priority. If he is willing to stay and raise her, together with you, that may be best, even if it's without "that piece of paper." (Did I really just say that??)

 

He had his chance to ask you to marry him before the child was born, so he could give her his last name, but he didn't. I don't think he will change his mind now, over a year later. But if he is willing to be there for his daughter, that's wonderful. Many of us are still raising children without two parents, and it's not all that fun.

 

Peace to you,

~Catnip

 

 

[Guest TooSoon]

For what it is worth, I didn't think I would ever want to marry again.  Now I do - I am intently focused on it, in fact and have been for quite some time.  My circumstances are quite different but that impulse is real and intense.  I don't need a wedding, I don't need anyone else's validation, I just feel really strongly about it for reasons not entirely clear to me.  For me it is not a moral thing, it has nothing to do with my child needing a father,  it has nothing to do with resources as I am able to support us with my career, it has to do with two people coming together in a mutual communion (meant in a secular way), for our two lives to become one.  Why I feel this way, I have no idea because I was as much a reluctant wife initially as I was a reluctant mother (I became a reluctant mother-to-be before I became a reluctant wife). 

 

I also want to address the lose-lose aspect of your commentary.  Again, different circumstances but my long distance arrangement is so intolerable sometimes that I just think, "It would just be so much easier if I just ended it."  But I don't want to end it.  I love him.  There is nothing I want more than to be together but we haven't been able to find the right compromise yet, then I get frustrated and I try to push him away, ostensibly just to make the angst and pain and wanting stop, but it never works.  Because ultimately, though I can't have what I want right now, I cannot imagine life without him, without the life we've created and are creating.  I don't want to be with anyone else, cannot imagine being with anyone else ever again.  I know unequivocally that we are better off as we are than we would be if we ended it, no matter how hard it is sometimes with having to accept "good enough for now" or not knowing what the end game is going to be but there are days when that is extremely hard to live with.  I haven't always handled it gracefully; I've never been in a situation like this!  Mostly, I am just trying to say that I understand that dilemma and send you so much empathy. 

[Trying]

Wow Mizpah this topic has really struck a cord with so many people for so many different reasons.  I hope that seeing all of the different opinions here at least helps you to see that this is a very complicated decision for lots of people for different reasons.  Your relationship was not able to evolve naturally because your circumstances caused you to fast forward to being a family before you were even sure you were completely committed to being a couple.  You may have skipped some steps as a couple which may have lead to confusion on where you each stand.  Of course you want to feel like your feelings and level of commitment are equal and your different communication styles leaves you feeling unsure.  You love this man and you have a child together, you picked up your life and moved to be a family, so it's not a black and white decision and my heart goes out to you. 

[Mizpah]

TooSoon, you get me completely. 

 

Trying, it's totally true what you said about not having a natural evolution and everything being on fast forward.  Luckily, just a couple weeks before I found out I was pregnant, he made a big declaration about being in love and wanting us to be together and making it work - said something lovely about how maybe, given what we'd been through, we may never be whole, but maybe "we can be one together."  At least I know we're not together just cuz I was pregnant....  At least there's that!

 

The main reason I'm writing though is to respond to some things that Catnip said or implied.  As I stated before, I believe most opinions and advice reflect more of the speaker's values and outlook and experience more than the situation itself, and given that you self-identified as older and Catholic, perhaps that's where your viewpoint springs from.  (I am not Catholic - very, very not Catholic - and I am not older.)

 

I don't think an unplanned pregnancy should ever be confused with an unwanted pregnancy.  I never said my daughter was unwanted, and there is no shame or "lesser"-ness in a pregnancy being unplanned.  Though I don't need to explain, defend or justify the situation, I will say: after DH died, I developed stress-related reproductive health issues, and was told I would likely not be able to have a child without some sort of medical assistance.  I felt I had not only lost the opportunity to have the children DH and I had planned to have together, I felt I'd also lost the opportunity to be a mother. 

 

"It was not her fault that she was not planned, may she never find out"?  There are many assumptions and judgments in this statement.  May she know one (age-appropriate) day the truth and the love she came from - that she was the best surprise, that I never thought she'd be possible and there she was!  She came from the love of two people who at one point had believed their hope was gone, found each other and came alive again, and created her.  There is no shame in that, whether married or unmarried, whether we stay together or break up. 

 

As for staying together just because he's willing to co-parent with me, to me, that's not in a child's best interests.  I want her to learn by example about relationships that are full and total.  I don't want for her to be with a man who doesn't want to marry her, so why would I teach her that by example?  (That being said, I very well may, and am leaning toward it.)  I want her to learn to be a strong and brave woman who doesn't give up on her hopes and dreams.  I do not think that two single parent households is a desirable scenario.  It would break my heart for all three of us.  It's not what I want.  Of COURSE she is a huge concern/priority in my decision-making - I didn't even think I needed to say that, it's so inherent.  But while it's not the ideal situation, there are many very well-adjusted, emotionally stable, successful, happy children of parents who are not together (and many very maladjusted, emotionally unstable, unsuccessful, unhappy children of parents who are together). 

 

(She does have her father's last name.  And she would not be raised with one parent - it's not the same as being widowed.  She would still have her father.) 

[MrsDan]

I also don't think parents' staying together only for the children is beneficial. I think it teaches kids that their needs supersede all others, and I don't believe in teaching kids that they are the center of the universe. I have no idea how I feel about marrying again. I was long against it, but then I also had no desire to date for a long time either. I thought I'd wait much longer to introduce BF to DD, but then changed my mind. Basically I'm finding that I'm much more open minded than I was. I will say though, that staying with someone who did not want to get married when I did, it was painful. It crushed my self esteem, made me doubt myself when I already felt like I wasn't good enough. I really can't see going through that again. I also feel like if I had major doubts about the institution, but it was important to my partner, I'd do everything I could to work through those doubts.

 

I also don't think it should be solely up the person who wants top get married to make the decision. If you are with someone who wants to get married, and you don't, and you stay with them anyway, well that's kind of shitty in my opinion. I was talking with someone about why a particular relationship they were in didn't work out, and he said that she was ready to get married and he wasn't, so they broke up. And my first thought was, Oh, you mean you didn't string her along for another six years? Because I kind of feel like that was what happened with us. And frankly, our situation didn't end too well. He clearly was not happy, and it's now unclear to me whether he ever wanted to get married. Dan said it was because I was  unsure about having children, and that is partly true. I suppose we were both being selfish. We couldn't give the other up, even knowing we couldn't provide what the other needed.

[Guest TalksToAngels]

Woos there's a lot going on as far as opinions.

All I can say is a mans vs women's thinking and brain are very different.

The reasons of a marriage should not solely lie on a child having both, it also heavily has to do with the love aspect.

No matter how much it may mean the child needs his parents I also would need the mutual feelings that the marriage was also about the love and faith and hope stuff.

It has to incorporate multiple aspects.

Enough said on my end.

[Guest nonesuch]

It's odd how society has changed, just in my lifetime.  A large portion of the US population now wouldn't think twice about a couple that lived together long-term without marriage.

 

A friend of mine and his girlfriend had decided years ago they wouldn't marry. They DID register as domestic partners when the municipality they lived in offered that as an option. The "We don't need a piece of paper" concept was something they didn't just give lip service to- they believed it.  Along the way friend contracted cancer.  So long as he had a good job with health insurance  all was well.  A couple years ago, he realized his current employment was maybe not going to last. His girlfriend's employer would cover him, but only if they married. So they married, quietly.  They don't wear rings, and haven't even told many of their friends. 

 

Like Talks to Angels, I stand to collect against my spouse's social security if I don't re-marry before age sixty.  Becoming widowed at 53 means that between grieving and screening dates and getting to know someone well enough to make the leap, one could easily be 60 before all those things are completed.  In my case, it's not a huge amount of money, but it will help.  If I were twenty years younger and single, I don't know if I would be willing to wait for a commitment.  It may not have to be marriage, but some gesture would have to be made...maybe wills, deeds and other documents codifying our financial and legal responsibilities to one another would be enough.

 

As someone older and wiser than my 25-year-old self, I see certain situations as deal-breakers. Once a deal-breaker has reared its ugly head, Older Wiser Nonesuch figures the sooner we end things, the better.  Mr Right Now doesn't morph into Mr Right, and every week we spend together is a week we become more attached,  and a week Mr Right *might* be looking for me...and I'm not available.

 

That's my old, grumpy, cynical view. YMMV.

 

[Sugarbell]

Woos there's a lot going on as far as opinions.

All I can say is a mans vs women's thinking and brain are very different.

The reasons of a marriage should not solely lie on a child having both, it also heavily has to do with the love aspect.

No matter how much it may mean the child needs his parents I also would need the mutual feelings that the marriage was also about the love and faith and hope stuff.

It has to incorporate multiple aspects.

Enough said on my end.

 

 

I am not an old widow...certainly not a 20 something but somewhere in the middle...

 

As a woman...I don't want to get remarried...nothing to do with money-Actually money wise I would be better off marrying NG in many ways including SS benefits. But I don't want to live together either. I don't think it's a male or female thing or a kid thing ...I think it's a very individualistic reason why people do or don't want to be married/remarried.

 

I love NG..I enjoy being exclusive...but I can't do more than that right now.  In my case, I didn't change...I was always upfront about not getting remarried. But now he keeps hinting around about it.

He changed.

But he's laid off...so things are good.

[Tatianakm]

Me again.

I'm Catholic, older, and I was involved in that discussion on the old board about marriage vs not being married. My view is still the same, I believe in the institution of marriage.

 

But in this case, I'm more concerned about the child. It was not her fault that she was not planned. May she never find that out.

 

~Catnip

 

I can't believe when I read this statement.

 

Mizpah, I truly believe that all children are "planned", planned by God, or something bigger and better than us. The fact that two of you met and conceived your precious girl was all a part of the larger plan, a path that was destined for two of you. Whether it happened in the wedlock or out is just semantics. Many people who are married and staying together for the sake of children are miserable and it poorly reflects on the same children they are trying to stay together for. As we know, compromise is not a productive conflict resolution. In your case perhaps you are putting too much stress on the timeline. I am sure marriage will happen for you, just give him some time. Men need to think that this was their idea in order to initiate major life changing events. He loves you, adores your child, committed to you- you won already!

[Catnip]

Me, once again.

 

I'm sorry Mizpah, if I upset you. That was not my intention. I never said, nor did you, that your daughter was not wanted. You said she was "unexpected" and really, you have done so much because of her. You left your job and city to move to your guy, so you both could raise her. I commend you for that. And, again, you are doing all you can to make it work out. I'm very sorry that it is not going as well as you had hoped.

 

Again, I thought I heard you say that if it did not work out, you were planning on leaving. That's when I assumed. And that's not right on my part. I assumed that you were thinking of moving back to your former city, and that your guy would become a weekend Dad for your daughter. I'm sorry I assumed so much.

 

I do believe, as you do, that marriage can be a declaration of stating a forever love. I'm sorry that that is what you want, and are not getting.

 

I hate to see families break up. I hope you can work it out. I admire you for all you have already done.

 

~Catnip

 

 

[Guest TalksToAngels]

My .02

If he feels pressured it simply will make it worse.

There are a million thoughts inside a women's logic.

There are 2 inside every guys.

 

Just a thought

[Mizpah]

TTA, you've said that several times, and I've responded by saying that I am not pressuring him.  I reported on one conversation we had.  I've stated that there is no point pressuring him, because it's more that I want him to WANT to marry me than that I want him to marry me, so it's a done deal.  You can pressure a person to DO something, sure, but that's not what I want - you can't pressure a person to naturally want something.  I already know he didn't want to marry me.  So I'd have to pressure him via ESP or hypnotizing or by tinkering inside his brain and heart, and in the past, which would require time travel, so.... 

[Captains wife]

Your posts really resonated with me Mizpah - so thank you for sharing what is very difficult. My situation was nowhere near the same but when it became clear to me that my ex wasn't into getting married again and wasn't into marrying me, it hurt...even though I wasn't itching to get married again necessarily. And no way was I going to bring it up more than once. But on the positive side for you  you sound well loved and it sounds like your relationship is on a better track so that means a lot too. All the best,