no more giving myself ultimatums

[Mizpah]

So I've been with NG for nearly 4 years now.  When we got together, he (a widower) was not even a year in.  I was about 2 1/2.  I feel like I recap in every post, and it's gotta be boring by now.  Briefly: exciting sexy chemistry-laden long distance fling, quickly got very serious, then found out I was pregnant (despite doc telling me I couldn't), we decide I'll move to be with him and raise our child together.  Left big city, all my friends, to be in the country.  Huge seismic shift for me, extremely homesick, emotionally needy (pregnant, homesick, came from a super close relationship with DH to a somewhat distant relationship style preference on his part), he withdrew almost immediately, we quickly lost a sense of alliance and love and turned into enemies really, with tons and tons of fighting nearly constantly for nearly two years.  I was distraught regularly and so sad and just wanted him to love me like before and he wanted me to not cause problems, but I couldn't with how heartbroken I felt.  We slowly became better people toward/with each other, learned each other, both compromised our styles and treatment, and what was horrid and rancorous is now generally sweet and loving.  We have our moments, but who doesn't?  And it's more about normal stuff, like household maintenance/operation issues, rather than hating each other's guts because of emotional differences, etc. 

 

One thing I've been unable to shed, though, is sadness and anger over his not wanting to get married.  It's funny, because before him I never cared about marriage.  But now I do.  Or rather, I care about him not wanting to get married, maybe not actually about being married.  I worry that I love him more than he loves me (likely, just because of our different ways of being in life and in relationships), I feel tortured over the fact that he wanted to marry her but not me (this is a big part of it, I hate feeling like I'm not #1 to the person I'm with - he never wanted to get married before her, and now he doesn't want to again - *I* want to be the exception, I don't want to be just another one, and the exception is someone else), I obsess over people maybe thinking I'm just some replacement or a regret or a shotgun partner, that he's only with me because I got pregnant, I obsess over a ring I saw on-line, I feel like I lose my self-respect by staying when I'm not getting this thing that I want (leave or you have no self-respect, I'm telling myself inside), I feel angry and sad and like this is the final sub-tragedy in the larger tragedy of losing DH: losing DH who wanted to bond us in soul and in life in every single way possible, and ending up with/loving someone who doesn't want to marry me.  It's caused me so much heartbreak and it's caused us so much discord.  I've been giving myself deadlines: "If he doesn't propose by blank date, I'm leaving.  Ok, he didn't propose.  If he doesn't propose by this new date, I'm going to leave.  I can't live like this anymore.  I can't do this to myself anymore."

 

And that's the kernel: "I can't do this to myself anymore." 

 

I don't want to leave him.  I love our love, I love our life (as stressful and difficult as it can be), I love our family, I love being with him and not being with someone who is not him, I love him being with me and not being with someone who is not me, etc., etc.  In order to cope with not having what I want (him wanting to marry me), I've been telling myself to sacrifice what I want (him, our family intact, and our everyday life together).

 

I've looked at it emotionally/romantically and as a rejection.  He's always looked at it pragmatically: doesn't want to get married just to get divorced, loves me but we fight/fought.  It's kind of funny, because a big part of the reason we've fought so much is because I don't feel loved (by my own index/criteria/behavior/expectations (we are VERY different), not by his - if I judge it all by his, it's very clear that he loves me).  Then he reacts to the fighting by disengaging and withdrawing and not wanting to get married, which leads me to feel unloved, and it's all this insane circular nonsense.  I've tried to only see it from my perspective, but if I'm honest with myself and him, I understand his perspective, as pragmatic and unromantic as it may be.  He makes decisions differently than I do, and while I prefer passion and dedication no matter what, it's probably wise and smart to be cautious and see how we do over time, as those initial major stresses on our relationship fade into the past. 

 

So the latest deadline I set for myself is this coming Wednesday.  And I think it's the last deadline I'm going to set.  He's not going to propose.  I don't want him to because I want him to, because of pressure.  I want him to want that with me.  Maybe he will eventually.  I hope.  I still hope.  I still feel sad and hurt.  Part of me feels that it's a hurt that can't even ever be fixed by him EVENTUALLY proposing, because I'll always know that I wanted it so much and he didn't.  BUT.  I'm going to stop torturing myself.  And try to let myself enjoy what we have, the love he gives me.  Because being married wouldn't change that.  And the whole reason I want to get married is because I want that, what I already have.... 

 

I hate having to be mature. 

[Forgottenwife]

I don't want him to because I want him to, because of pressure.  I want him to want that with me.  Maybe he will eventually.  I hope.  I still hope.  I still feel sad and hurt.  Part of me feels that it's a hurt that can't even ever be fixed by him EVENTUALLY proposing, because I'll always know that I wanted it so much and he didn't. 

 

Huge hugs Mizpah today as we navigate this new life. I can relate in may ways, our situations are similar. I am living with the man of my dreams truly, a better match for me than my late husband. A man I would literally follow to the ends of the earth. My NG just doesn't want to ever get married, even though we live like a married couple. His reasons are his own.

 

It is so true now in 2017 that people aren't getting married as in the past. I think if this were 1957, we would both already be remarried (and so would many people that I know who are living similarly) seems that for some, marriage just isn't a big deal anymore.

 

It is regrettable that each of you don't get what you want, one of you has to compromise. Sad for you that it is you who compromises in this way, with the knowledge that your man does not want the same and does not desire having you for his wife. That has got to hurt. I do hope whether he *just my opinion* - wakes up one day and realizes just how lucky he is to have your love and devotion and companionship, a beautiful, smart and attentive woman that wants to give herself to him in marriage, and he cannot wait even one more day to be your husband - or not, that you really can come to a peace with whatever choices you make in this life, staying or not, living with and loving him or not. Living with what you called, 'a sadness and anger' sounds tiring. I wish only the best, for all of you. I'm sorry he doesn't want what is in your heart too.

[Mizpah]

our situations are similar. I am living with the man of my dreams truly, a better match for me than my late husband. A man I would literally follow to the ends of the earth.

 

This part is different for me, though, and part of that pesky maturing I'm being forced to do.  We're NOT perfect for each other, we're NOT a better match for each other than we were for our lost loves, I would not characterize him as the man of my dreams, though I love him dearly, and I doubt I'd ever follow anyone but DH to the ends of the earth (this all sounds so terrible!).  We're not "imperfect but perfect for each other," it's more like we're imperfect and also really imperfect together.  And so part of all of this for me is an unpleasant, forced examination of my own motives and desires - is there part of me that desperately wants him to want to marry me precisely because he doesn't want to?  That there's an element of hurt pride/ego, some rejection I want healed without having to admit that maybe I have refused to recognize his reservations because maybe I share them, or that I have different concerns/reservations.  I don't know.  Maybe I presented it as more simple than it actually is for me.  I think I've allowed myself to occupy a space of rejectedness and victimhood, maybe partly because a victim bears no blame/responsibility - I'd like to be innocent.  I can tell myself that he's the one who's hurt me, not just life - that's easier, that's simpler - and also, if HE's the one who's hurt me, he's the one who can heal/comfort me, whereas if it's just life/chance that has hurt, there is no balm or comforter or solution.  It's easier if he's the one who's decided we're not passionately crazily in love above all other concerns like compatibility and dynamics, then it's not that I have to face that DH was perfect for me and I'm making do, "just" making something good and lovely out of what I've been dealt (having to redefine love as something less poetic and more mundane and quiet and realistic).  I'm angry at him for what I have interpreted as him loving DW more than me, but perhaps I'm as guilty.  I'm angry at him for caring more about how we get along than about lofty theoretical ideas about love.  But maybe his having been concerned about those adult things relieves me from having to.  I don't know.  I could examine this for hours and days and years, and apparently I have, to no true conclusion.

[Forgottenwife]

Sorry, I just meant we are similar in living with a man that we wish would want to marry us, that is the part I can relate to. I understand its very different other than that part.

 

I still wish you all the best!

 

 

[Mizpah]

No apologies necessary.  Just further exploring.  I'm clearly all caught up in tangles in my head! 

[Guest Metv]

:

[arneal]

Mizpah: first, {{{hugs}}}

 

Second, your post makes me think about why we want things sometimes. You mentioned that you had a certain type of relationship with your LH and the one with NG is very different. Might it be that your litmus for what a relationship looks like is based on what came before? This question is not to diminish the rest of your post by far but is offered as food for thought.

 

I am only a year in with my NG. He is more affectionate in some ways and less in others than LH. I go back and forth with thoughts of marriage to him but have no idea if he does the same. We don't talk about it; while his previous marriage did not last long, they courted for quite some time, and in the end the relationship was damaging to him. He remains hurt and for this reason our conversations about marriage tend toward the esoteric. He has never said he was against marrying again and neither have I. We don't refer to ourselves as a couple, but I don't get that either of us came from families that used labels in relationships a lot. But I'd like to -- similar to you, I'd like to be the difference maker However, and thanks to 'talking out' my thoughts and feelings here, amongst people who have been or are in similar straits, as well as reading several dating blogs (because between two marriages, both of which left me widowed, I have spent nearly half my life married and don't know how to date) has helped me come to terms with going with the flow, not expecting this man to be what I've created in my head and accepting him as he is.

 

That said, acceptance and settling are two very different things. More food for thought, so no answers expected: are you and he in this because you've gotten comfortable? Is the idea of trying to build relationship -- any form of loving, close, intimacy -- seem like too much work or too impossible to seek out elsewhere? Do you love him and does he love you, as individuals -- not as the other parent of the child you had together? Are you in love with one another?

 

Maybe I'm just a beach hippie, but I believe where I live is sanctuary. There should be peace for everyone who shares the space. Arguments don't happen here. Do we disagree? Do we drive each other crazy with our habits and quirks? Surely! But fighting? Nope. I know what soul-discord that causes from my first marriage and knew I never wanted to live like that again. My second husband helped me work toward this notion of sanctuary; despite how crazy we made each other from time to time, we never fought or had a cross word in 16 years because we talked about everything, no matter how hard it was.

 

So what do you want? Can you get it in this relationship? Not without a serious set of conversations. Courageous conversations where you are willing to hear your guy and he is willing to hear you, without judgment or expectation beyond honesty. Where you both identify what it means to move forward, either on the same path or on complementary ones where you can be good together but not together for your child.

 

You deserve every happiness in the world. Life is too short to settle for not having it. But it's what you make it. If you can make it with this man, great -- life is about compromise after all. If you can't, what does that mean? Only you and he can figure that out.

 

Sending love and light ...

[Mizpah]

You mentioned that you had a certain type of relationship with your LH and the one with NG is very different. Might it be that your litmus for what a relationship looks like is based on what came before? This question is not to diminish the rest of your post by far but is offered as food for thought.

 

not expecting this man to be what I've created in my head and accepting him as he is.

 

That said, acceptance and settling are two very different things. More food for thought, so no answers expected: are you and he in this because you've gotten comfortable? Is the idea of trying to build relationship -- any form of loving, close, intimacy -- seem like too much work or too impossible to seek out elsewhere? Do you love him and does he love you, as individuals -- not as the other parent of the child you had together? Are you in love with one another?

 

Maybe I'm just a beach hippie, but I believe where I live is sanctuary. There should be peace for everyone who shares the space. Arguments don't happen here.

 

So what do you want? Can you get it in this relationship?

 

Life is too short to settle for not having it. But it's what you make it. If you can make it with this man, great -- life is about compromise after all. If you can't, what does that mean? Only you and he can figure that out.

 

Thanks, arneal.  I think you hit the nail on the head.  I think I entered this relationship thinking HE wasn't ready and that I was much further along in terms of healing.  In terms of time, I was further along, but I think that my relationship with DH was both a blessing and a curse in its greatness.  And the curse aspect of it has made its mark on my current relationship.  With DH, that infatuated initial phase never faded.  But in real life, in most relationships, it does.  You can't keep up that infatuation.  And don't they say that studies/brain scans show that being in love looks just like being insane? 

 

I think my expectations WERE skewed, and that I've been judging this relationship based on that one.  Wanting that when I have this, and this is so very different, but my life is so different now, and *I* am so different now - and these men are so different, but both wonderful, in very different ways.  DH was young and idealistic, and our lives were a bit luxurious - we had few worries and few things taking our attention away from showering each other with pure love.  Now, NG and I are both truly adults, with truly adult responsibilities and all the stresses that come with that.  And while DH had had a somewhat easy, very love-filled life, NG has had a (to put it mildly) rough time of it since childhood/babyhood, and in a lot of ways, losing DW was not even close to the worst of it.  I think I overestimated how well-adjusted I was, because I was only well-adjusted in a vacuum, and wasn't able to apply it to my new life, I wasn't able to accept what I now had or appreciate it because I was so hyper-aware of what was lacking in comparison.   

 

Are we in love?  I don't know.  I'm not sure I know what that means anymore.  Were we infatuated in the beginning?  Yes.  Is there still lust and chemistry?  Yes.  Do we spend our free time gazing into each other's eyes and praising each other?  No, and we don't really have much free time.   

 

Our home wasn't a sanctuary for a long time, and it felt terrible.  But in the past year or two, it has become that.  We have flare-ups (we're both intense and have tempers), but I think we used to dread going home and now it's lovely.  Am I settling?  I don't think so.  I wanted him.  I got him.  Does he give me what I want?  Let's say he doesn't give me what I thought I wanted.  We don't have conversations like the ones you described, and we likely never will.  But he planted me a big garden of gorgeous flowers.  He speaks in a different language than me and different from what I'm used to.  But I'm learning to appreciate it.  I don't think it's settling.  I think it's maturing, understanding, accepting, growing even.  I think I posted a long time ago that DH made me a happy woman, but maybe not a better woman, and that, through some growing pains and adjustment, NG has made me a better woman. 

 

I've never been one of those rays of sunshine who are always positive, so learning appreciation doesn't come naturally to me.  But learning to appreciate what we share, instead of obsessing on the one thing I don't have (marriage), like a temper tantrum, is I think important for me.  Maybe I won't be able to reconcile myself to it in the end, but I think letting the pressure off myself will help me to see clearly if this is giving me what I need or not. 

[arneal]

Yes, yes, and yes, Mizpah! Appreciation! We all are so different which is what makes the human mosaic so interesting. On another thread we've had lots of discussion of what I guess we could call love language -- how do you say I love you versus the other person. Some folks just blurt it out all over the place, others plant gardens of flowers, others use touch or looks, and on and on.

 

It sounds like you are either already in or are standing at the precipice of a good place for yourself. And that's what counts

[Captains wife]

It's great Mizpah that you are very self reflective. And taking that attitude since your relationship is in a much better place is a positive way to move forward. I can understand why you feel how you feel- not the same but I was never that into getting married but when I lost it I (for a period of time) was very much wishing one of my relationships would lead to marriage again. Yet as time has gone on, I've learned to be ok that my life hasn't turned out as I had always imagined it would turn out. I really try and stay focused  and positive on the good things I do have in my life and be happy with that. Taking that pressure off yourself will also take pressure off your relationship - it does sound as though you and NG needed to figure out each other's love languages (and they are different). And although the transition sounds as though it has been tough, you have a beautiful child you are raising together. Not everyone gets to experience that. Wishing you all the best - and thank you for sharing.

[jgib]

Mizpah, I believe you already know the answers, you just don't like them very much.  This happens to us all in different aspects of our lives.

I will be honest with you and your "like a temper tantrum " comment is what my thoughts were about your first post.  You just being upset about what you wanted and weren't getting instead of seeing the whole picture.  Then your next post really showed some insight and self reflection and like I say, I think you really do know the answers for yourself, they are just not exactly how you want then.

Nobody can really tell you what is best for you but you are smart you will get it.  Maybe stop overthinking it so much, relax, take a deep breath and feel lucky for what you have for a few moments each day.

[Captains wife]

I love this comment....

 

 

"And don't they say that studies/brain scans show that being in love looks just like being insane?" 

[daysofelijah]

I had some of those ultimatums in my head for a while, not about the getting married, but about NG saying I love you. Took him a loooong time.

 

I don't really know how to give any advice but thought I should reply. It seems like you both have made it through a lot of hard times that were inevitable, and now you are in a place where you could be happy? It may come down to you making the choice of saying, "It is what it is" he doesn't want to get married, can you live with that and still be happy? Because it doesn't sound like ultimatums or pushing is going to force him to make that leap. Maybe someday he will want to, but maybe not. Are you okay with it never happening, or are you okay with waiting until your child is much older? I'm sure these are all things that you have already asked yourself.

 

You know my story. NG was, probably still is, not too excited about the idea of getting married again. I have made my position clear from the beginning though that marriage is a necessity to a long term relationship with me. I refused to live with him without a proposal. In some ways I nudged him into it, I suppose, but there was no forcing or ultimatum either, he is a grown man. So he made the choice if he wants to keep me and have me in his life full time, I need us to be married.

 

You falling pregnant lost that ability to be able to stay apart from him and you were in some ways forced to make the move and leap. So now you feel stuck.

 

More and more, the "it is what it is" attitude is entering my life. There are things I can't change so I have to decide if I can live with it how it is, or if I can't then I need to choose to make a change. Maturity is tough. You were lucky to have such a wonderful life with your DH. I hope you have find contentment in your new life as well.

[Guest TooSoon]

One hard won lesson I've learned is the concept of "acceptance."  I fought it (and sometimes still do fight it) tooth and nail but I've learned the power of just accepting things the way they are sometimes.  It felt like capitulation and capitulation was never in my vocabulary before (with before being the operative word here).  Fundamentally not liking the word "acceptance,"  I adopted the mantras "its just for now" or "this isn't forever" or "its not permanent" And as much as I hate to say this, most of the time, if I just give it some time, acceptance comes or the circumstances change or it resolves with time. 

 

I'm absolutely not minimizing what you're saying.  But as daysofelijah said, I've often gotten myself to the point of "Can I live with this?"  and therein found the answer to my question..."Can I live with long distance for one more year?"  "Can I do this job for one more year?"  One question you might ask, which is simply a recalibration of the "Can I live with this?" question is the "Do I want to live without this?" question or the "Would my (our - your daughter) life be better without him?"  or "Can I envisage a better future without him?" or any similar configuration of the same.  I think that's the one that always kept me going with Andy when things got/are difficult or I was/am conflicted. 

 

Not sure this is helpful at all; am just offering maybe more avenues for thinking it through.  xoxoxox

[Abitlost]

Mizpah,

 

Your post makes me sad. I have not read all the responses so forgive me if I am redundant or out of line.

 

Over the years I have gleaned from your posts that you are varying degrees of discontent, resentful even, in your life with NG. In equal proportions, it seems you try to justify your decisions to yourself...but still the strife wears on you. I'm sorry to be blunt and tell me to shut up if you wish, but you and NG seem  diametrically opposed with very little common ground. My prediction -- not that you asked for it -- is that this life extrapolated over the years will either quash the person you are inside (which is different from maturation, acceptance, etc.) or you will continue to live an unsatisfied and unfulfilled life. Would you be with him if not for your daughter?

 

I spent (wasted) 4.5 years in an unsatisfying relationship with Ex-BF, justifying it because I didn't think I could ever replicate what I had in what was my perfect marriage with DH. Throughout the relationship, I often thought to myself that DH would be extraordinarily disappointed in me going from what I had with him to that. Despite how painful the breakup was, I am beyond happy to say I am now with someone whom DH would endorse. I honestly could not be happier! It does exist.

 

abl

[Bunny]

You are a smart and thoughtful woman. But you suffer from the same afflictions I myself have to fight against- fixation and rumination. To follow along with TooSoon's excellent advice on Acceptance, I will add that the truest and freest way to love anyone is without expectations. When i am able to release myself from their grip it is amazing how much easier my life becomes, how much lighter, happier I feel.

 

Look, your relationship with your DH was absurdly ideal. And your boyfriend had finally found a woman he wanted to marry. You both got to reach that Peak of Ultimate Joy. And then they died on you. And now here you both are, stuck with less than perfect and a baby probably the only thing holding you two together. Well, I don't really think that's true, but I'm sure it's felt like it sometimes. You know, babies can be extremely hard on a relationship. That's a test neither of you dealt with with DH or fiancé, so true comparisons can't really be that accurate, can they? I've watched many a blissful relationship take a nosedive when children came along. And it can take parents quite a while to get their sea legs back. Throw a couple dashes of widowhood into the mix and is it any wonder you two are having some pretty darn intense growing pains?

 

It's funny how you want to be your boyfriend's ideal while freely admitting he is most certainly not yours- human nature is such a silly, fickle little thing sometimes, isn't it? You want what you cannot give. And, to make matters worse, your boyfriend is seemingly content with this. I was super duper into marrying my husband, but I have zero desire to marry my boyfriend- even though I'm planning on being with him until one of us drops dead. I don't know why I'm not interested. I know he wants to get married, but thus far has not tried to push the matter (probably because he knows I don't take ultimatums very well).

 

I'm going to recommend a book to you that a widow recommended on the ywbb. Actually, I wish I could make everyone in the world read this book- it has helped me so much. Here's a review of it I just found on-line:

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/heart-and-soul-healing/201303/undefended-love

 

Please, please, please Read This Book before you decide what it is you want or don't want.

[StillWidowed]

It's ok if you keep giving yourself deadlines.  I did the same thing with my ex bf.  Only to keep the vicious cycle going for another year, then another.  My sister never worried about me.  She said I know when you've had enough, you'll walk.  And she was right.  I eventually got to the point where the stress was just too much and I couldn't let it keep wearing on me.  Do I still think about him?  Yep.  Do I still miss him?  Yep.  Do I want to contact him and start the cycle all over again?  Nope.  But it took me a long time to get here.  Just like our grief, this too will take as long as it takes.  And when you're ready to move on, you will.

 

(((Hugs)))

[Mizpah]

Oh gosh, I love all of you, and I think you're all right, even when you contradict each other, and even when you tell me my relationship is doomed and you feel sad for me.  And that's the thing about my situation (all of ours, I'm sure): it is not simple, and many different contradicting things are correct.  It is complicated with many different factors.  I wrote this after I read ABitLost's comments and probably was defensive and I wasn't going to post it (for worry that I was just simply being defensive), but I guess I will:

 

"

Over the years I have gleaned from your posts that you are varying degrees of discontent, resentful even, in your life with NG. In equal proportions, it seems you try to justify your decisions to yourself...but still the strife wears on you. I'm sorry to be blunt and tell me to shut up if you wish, but you and NG seem  diametrically opposed with very little common ground. My prediction -- not that you asked for it -- is that this life extrapolated over the years will either quash the person you are inside (which is different from maturation, acceptance, etc.) or you will continue to live an unsatisfied and unfulfilled life. Would you be with him if not for your daughter?

 

You're not out of line, and there are parts of what you say that have kernels of truth in them, and are arguments I've mounted against myself, but I think it's overly simplistic, which is inherent in this kind of forum, with posting snippets (and usually when in a rough time).  I am discontent and resentful.  Absolutely.  But it's not all or even largely because of him or because we are different.  And I think this goes to a big part of why we had so many problems for a couple years.  I went through huge changes all at once, and was lonely and isolated - it became very easy for me to blame him for a whole array of things.  I was quashed by leaving the home I'd known for over a decade and loved fiercely, by leaving all my friends and I had a huge social circle, by leaving a really satisfying job, by leaving my synagogue and my classes, by leaving the place where I ran and worked out, by leaving DH's family and the ritual of visiting his grave, and I think most of all I was quashed by the severe life change in becoming a mother, losing freedom (and sleep for 16 months) and the freedom to be selfish in my decisions and time.  I lost the ability to be the most important person.  In my life with DH, for example, I had no money worries.  But I have huge educational debt, and now with daycare, I really need to face financial realities.  For another example, in my life with DH, I was always #1 to him.  But he didn't have kids, we didn't have kids.  In many ways, I think these years have been me adjusting to being a responsible, mature, accountable adult, and doing it very ungracefully. 

 

I do see your point, and perhaps I'm just being defensive, but, like I said, our dynamic has improved so vastly, and my main problem is just this marriage issue.  Our day-to-day life is lovely and sweet, and my favorite place in the whole world is cuddled in bed in the morning with him.  My whole life I've struggled with perfectionism and being insatiable, always wanting everything to be better and more perfect.  Even DH used to tell me I drive myself "cuckoo." 

 

Is my relationship quashing who I am?  I'd say my current life is, the life of a financially struggling working mom.  Would I have stayed with him if not for my daughter?  If we're talking a couple years ago, no, definitely not.  If we're talking about right now, absolutely.  I said to my therapist a few months ago that I stayed in large part because of my daughter, and now I'm so glad that I did, that I couldn't have known then what it would be now.  Partly because we're different, we've opened up whole other aspects of life for each other and exposed each other to things we never expected to influence us. 

 

My post makes you sad - it *is* sad.  The story is sad.  But it's not sad because I'm settling for a certain relationship, it's sad because I was with a man to whom I was the center of the world, and now I'm with a mature man who doesn't think it's a great idea to get married before seeing if a relationship can stabilize and flourish consistently.  Because it hurts me even though I understand it and even respect it.  I still want what I want.  And I want it now. 

 

Does it sound terrible, as a widow, to say I'm not overly concerned with what I think DH would want for me?  I'm such a different person now - I'm more concerned with what I want for me.  I want NG.  I just want him to want to marry me too. 

 

(And in response to people who say pressuring him won't help, it's more that I'm pressuring MYSELF - to leave, that I'm linking it all to a concept of my self-respect, that I can't stay unless he proposes, that if he doesn't propose it means I'm vulnerable to him, I love him more than he loves me, that he loves me less than he loved/loves DW, etc., etc.) 

 

Do I protest too much?  Like TooSoon says, I'm struggling with acceptance.  I don't want anything less than exactly what I want."

 

 

 

And to that, that I wrote before, I'll add:

 

Bunny, you've got it: my relationship with DH was absurdly ideal.  Absurdly, and NG's relationship with LW was perfect for him (she had very few demands on him, seemingly wanted little but a roof over her head and occasional pragmatic assistance - I'm a bit more... intense).  Having a baby together while he was freshly grieving and sixteen months of interrupted sleep really did a number on us in the early stages of our relationship, for sure, and yeah - children put enormous strains on relationships, not to mention the blending aspect.

 

And I am a hypocrite for sure (and a fixated, overthinking one, yes) - wanting to be his ideal despite not being able to give the same award (obviously not something I'd ever say to him).  Human nature is, partly, greedy, voracious, jealous, ego-driven, hungry hungry hungry.

[Guest TooSoon]

 

I don't want anything less than exactly what I want."

 

 

 

We might share DNA.  This is me, too.  100%.

[Guest Metv]

Not to butt in but it seems to come down to one question. Are you happy or can be with the way thing are, now ? I've asked myself that, during several post relationships. And the changes I made were for myself. Saying to myself, hey self, you cannot change someone else. To me, the longer I waited to speak my mind, the worse off I was. So even though the decisions sometimes hurt,I knew it was what I had to do. For my own well being. Just a thought.

[Mizpah]

Not to butt in

 

Open to all always

 

I think that's exactly the point of no longer giving myself ultimatums: to see if I can stop fixating, and if I stop fixating, to see if I'm actually happy.  Maybe I am, maybe I'm not, but I don't think I can tell when I'm constantly torturing myself by issuing deadline after deadline to myself and threatening myself. 

 

And as for changing someone else, what I've found is actually, strangely, the opposite: once I changed my behaviors toward him, he changed his behaviors toward me.  I think people can and do regularly change, ourselves and each other.  You know that phrase: hurt people hurt people.  If damage can change us, then can't effort and being mindful and more accepting?

[Guest Metv]

The changes we make to (for) ourselves, will ultimately change some behaviors of those close to us, but the change initiates from us, and the others remain, inherently, themselves. Others will react.

Maybe it could be rephrased, but the idea is the same. Just offering speculation.

[Guest Metv]

I have to write that down. I went to pretty extensive lengths to seek advise and counseling not only about being alone, but also what makes others tick. Grateful to those who guided and helped me. I called it the Me 1rst advise, and although I'm kind of new here, I always rout for the widowed.

[arneal]

Mizpah -- that post you weren't going to post digs into a few more of your 'I want items'. It seems that you got accustomed to a lifestyle -- financial security, being the sun around which your LH rotated, being free to do as you wished. As you said, your NG has a different view of life. Questions: did you know that when you all were less entangled? Did it not matter or was the attraction (infatuation, whatever you want to label it) overwhelming the things that now have bubbled to the surface? Did you not desire marriage back then, was it not a topic of conversation, did you assume he wanted to marry? Do you believe, over and above adoring him, you can make this life work, even if it doesn't have the bells and whistles you had with your LH? Is it 'just' the marriage thing? I don't mean that one lightly as being legally together (having the paper that declares you wed) is very important to some people.

 

I hope my questions and comments here are not too far out; I have never been in your previous situation, even though my second husband was probably pretty close -- he was a musician so never were we NOT concerned about how the next bill was getting paid lol -- because he called himself my biggest fan. He was always in my corner and as emotionally supportive as he could be up until the day he died. The first husband was a bus and truck driver, very ill tempered, which is probably what took him from life; my happiness was the last thing on his mind. I am an only child and have always been very independent. Have money, don't have money ... I will work and get what I want. I get tongue-tied when people do things for me as I am not used to it  ;D I tell myself I would get married again and I would like to marry my NG, but if it doesn't happen, that's okay too. I hope we remain 'a thing' until one or the other of us meets our end. I look at my mother who hasn't remarried since my dad died nearly 23 years ago: she has her 'friend', who lived with a woman for about the same amount of time and they never got married. My mom says she doesn't want to -- she likes having her own place and whatnot. She stays at his house, he stays at hers, they each go home if they get on each other's nerves or simply have things to do on their own turf. It is what it is. They make each other happy, they look out for each other (they are each other's health guardian so he can make decisions for her and she can make decisions for him). At their ages, they crack me up.

 

Just a late night rambling here. Want to see you come back and post how absolutely ridiculously happy you are, no matter the reason or path to it {{{hugs!!!}}}

[Mizpah]

As you said, your NG has a different view of life. Questions: did you know that when you all were less entangled? Did it not matter or was the attraction (infatuation, whatever you want to label it) overwhelming the things that now have bubbled to the surface? Did you not desire marriage back then, was it not a topic of conversation, did you assume he wanted to marry? Do you believe, over and above adoring him, you can make this life work, even if it doesn't have the bells and whistles you had with your LH? Is it 'just' the marriage thing? I don't mean that one lightly as being legally together (having the paper that declares you wed) is very important to some people.

 

I hope my questions and comments here are not too far out

 

Did I know it?  Yes and no.  He was very different in courtship than he has been in a relationship, and I suppose we all are *to an extent*.  (He was very attentive and I was very easygoing.  We both did a pretty quick 180 once "$h!t got real.")  I think, because of his childhood and relationship history, he knows "the script" for courtship, but not for actual intimacy and emotional bonding???  And I had different expectations from a casual fling partner and a life partner, and I don't think he realized how much I would expect to be able to rely on him. 

 

As for marriage, I didn't care then *and* he said something early on that made me believe he wanted to marry me.  So we both kind of flip flopped there as well.  (As I'm typing this, I'm really digesting the whole "you don't know how you'll react to a situation until you're in it" pearl of wisdom that I firmly believe in about grief, but didn't realize held true to relationships transitioning from easy fun fantasy swiftly to hard core real life struggles.)

 

And do I believe it can work without bells and whistles?  Absolutely. 

 

Is it just marriage?  I think it's what marriage has come to mean for me in this context: that I'm not second-best (wanted to marry his DW but not me), that he chooses me (not just that he's with me because of our baby or because we've passively happened to stay together over time), that he's in this like I am for good.  Maybe it's all my insecurities conveniently packaged into one thing.

 

Thanks for being my therapist, arneal (and everybody)!  And sorry for subjecting everyone to my overthink and babble.  I hope recoupling is easier for everyone else, and if not, that there may be a scrap or two here that can give them some comfort?  :-\ ??? :

 

(As for reporting in ridiculously happy, I can at least say I'm feeling less obsessed, fixated, haunted, soul-destroyed, largely because of talking through it, as well as because of the improvements I see/cause/enjoy in my relationship daily.)