arneal

Thanks, klim -- it was good and not so good in my estimation. So there's the communication bit that we've been talking about here ... Saturday evening, NG texts me about planning for the meet up; he has been doing a lot of driving for work and was pretty tired and suggested that either I come there and we leave from his place or I come get him in the morning. I ask about the house rule and parking, since he'd been using his extra parking pass for his work truck. He answered that the truck was in the garage so I could use the parking pass and that the biggest issue was not having two bathrooms before; since the new place has two bathrooms, the house rule no longer applies. I laughed to myself about that and told him I'd come over. Just before I left home, I got a text from my son's house mom, suggesting we postpone because my son had not had the best day. I told her I was hoping we could go with it because 1) we postponed before and 2) both NG and I had rearranged our schedules for this weekend. She agreed. NG and I had a quiet evening and made it to the place to meet my son. I was very nervous but the introductions went well and we left to go to brunch. I had picked this little Caribbean place and they both enjoyed the meal. My son said he had permission from his house mom to go pick up something from the store, so we did that before going back to meet her. The conversations were pleasant and he didn't ask too many questions. At one point while we were waiting for our meal, he looks at me and says he has a picture of his dad (my LH) up in his room, that he missed him, and wished he had been a better son. I told him that none of that mattered because he loved Dad and Dad loved him. My son then says he is grateful to have a second chance and would do better. Mind you, when we were about to be seated, he had asked where I wanted to sit and pulled the chair out for me. He then proceeded to try and tell NG where to sit and we made a joke of it, that he was 'directing traffic'. The waiter laughed too and my son said that he was just trying to be nice to 'his parents'. He referred to us as 'his parents' again when he blessed the table before we ate. I refused to look at NG -- how mortified was I, right? So we finish up and head back to meet my son's house mom. She thanked NG for taking good care of me, said that we were cute together. However, as it turned out, my son had not been truthful about having permission to make a purchase at the store. She called him out on it and we discussed it right then and there. NG stayed out of it and before we all parted ways, it seemed that things were okay. My son shook NGs hand again and hugged me, we laughed a bit, and then we left. On my way to drop NG off, I get a call. I see it's my son's house mom so I pick up the phone to find out he really acted out on her. I don't usually drive and talk on the phone and am glad I didn't have it on speaker or anything. Just from my side of the conversation, NG could tell I was upset. He didn't say anything but just rubbed my arm. When I got home, I texted him to thank him for the day and to say I was sorry it got a bit ugly toward the end. He texted me back this morning that he thought it was a nice visit and mentioned an adage about 'praise in public, punish in private' -- he agreed that punishment of some sort was in order but that it probably should not have been a discussion there since it was in front of him, the first time my son was meeting him. I get it -- he has shared that his mom had no problems shaming him in public when he was young. I wrote back that it's sort of a hit or miss because my son is quick to recognize when someone else is in the wrong and has expressed that the person should not act that way. His house mom and I have taken the same tactic with him, that if he acts up in public the discussion about it happens in public. No yelling or that sort of thing but a clear explanation of what the problem is, what his part in it was, and why it was a problem to begin with. This was one of those times that it just did not go very well. I know NGs text this morning was sent probably during a break at work so I don't expect to get an answer any time soon. I wrote a social media post last night about wanting to be a better mom and a blog post this morning about being a better parent. Gonna just lay low for a bit and lick my wounds ...

tybec -- yeah, LH and I came into our situation at pretty much the same point; I worked for the community college and was renting a 3-br apartment (one for me, one for my son, and one as a study for all my books) and he was renting a 3-br house and lived in the basement so he had a nice place for his daughter on the times he had her and for him and his dad. When I moved there as it was in the same town as the college, I stayed in the basement with him, his dad had the first floor br and my son and his daughter each had their own room on the top floor. The guy who rented it to him shafted him in the end so when it was time to move, I decided to try and buy. I got the house I wanted and we all moved there, except for his dad, who had died before all the drama with the rental agreement started. When we moved west for my university position, LH was already retired due to his health and we leased a house until I found out how much a house that size costs out here (it was in the $500k range ... nope, we moved immediately). I bought the house I am in now. Each time, even after we were married, he told me to just go ahead and put it in my name. We never had much more than what it took to feed us and the pets and take care of the bills, so living on the edge is where I've been for a while. Now that I am a multi-institution adjunct faculty member, I hustle as much as I can to do what I want. Not easy, but for now, it works. I just have me and my pets to care for. klim -- you aren't alone on the communication bit. NG and I don't really have deep conversations about money. The who's gonna pay thing comes up as it does and if one of us doesn't have, we say so and make different plans. trying, like you mentioned, NG said he and his ex-wife split everything 50/50; he would ask her for her half of the rent and that sort of thing. That to me is weird because LH and I were more organic; he would ask me how much I needed to pay the bills and sometime I would just say 'all of it' and we'd laugh because either he or I had bought something we really didn't need LOL. I think because NG and his ex had such a distant relationship from the beginning they did it like that. If we were to get to such a point and he moved here into my house, I wouldn't want to share an account and wouldn't expect to sit down and split everything in half. Dunno, just not my way. I'd expect a decent chunk to be able to buy more food and pay higher utilities, but beyond that -- saying of course that my income were to stay the same or increase -- I would be a bit more chill about it. Thanks, trying -- NG knows that my son is on the spectrum and from his past experiences he sounds like he is prepared. We'll see!

Thanks, Needy -- NG told me he once dated a woman who's son was on the spectrum so I am sure it will be okay. I made a comment when we first started talking about it that my son might just say or ask anything because he doesn't have a filter and NG just smiled and said he could ask anything. I was like, be careful what you ask for As an aside, there is a new show on TV called the Good Doctor; it's about a young doctor with autism. I watched the first episode last night and part of it had me in tears. I posted about it on social media and someone I know got into all this stuff about how bad of a show it was because it's so not believable. She was stuck on the fact that if a person acted like the main character, they could cause the hospital to get sued (not quick in responses, etc etc). I lost it and commented about how I have enough reality and wasn't watching it for that but wanted to see how they portrayed a person with autism, that I don't usually watch major network TV but will support this for my son and others like him. She had admitted she doesn't have the expertise to comment on the autistic behaviors but went on about the lack of realism in other ways. I mentioned my background -- dealing with the abusive first husband, my son's dad, and how the one speech the guy in the show made had me crying. No more responses from her. I mention it because you said something about how much to share, Needy. Different context I know, but there are times when it can't be helped ... Specifically to your point, you asked about how much to share. I have used that phrase, that things weren't very nice, when I talk to my mom -- she knew about the first husband to a certain extent, more because she got a vibe from him, but I have never told her much because I didn't want to hurt her. Anyway, NG was very VERY open from the first telephone conversation we had. I think it's because he just wanted it all out there, accept me as I am or don't bother with me sort of thing. I figured if he can put it out there, so can I. However, the really bad parts I didn't share until we were well into our situation and he had shared something about his last marriage. I think I told the story somewhere on here about how he asked me to sit down at my kitchen table because he had something to tell me. He described this situation that had happened between him and his ex. They were just separated at that point -- he had told me that from the beginning and made it clear that he was getting divorced; even shared that he had messed up at one point because some paperwork came and he wasn't aware of the deadline to get it back in ... sent it a bit late but the divorce went through without any issues. Anyway, he told me of the incident and said he just wanted me to know in case things got ugly during the divorce, just so I would know his side of the story. He was shaking, so nervous to tell me. That night, I told him of the really bad things that had happened in the first marriage. We've shared some other things along the way as well so it's been quite open on that front. Like you, Needy, I have been married twice (widowed twice as well) and he describes himself as being married and divorced twice, even though there was no official marriage between him and his kids' mom. I was smiling a bit as you describe the financial thing. So I am less of a 'saver' than NG is at this point I think. My second marriage was to a musician and despite our best efforts, we always lived on the edge financially, especially after he got really sick and couldn't play anymore. Thank God for retirement because he was able to get social security early. However that went away after he died of course and everything is on me. I work at three different universities as I do not have a single full-time gig. I just did a debt consolidation to get two broken vehicles off my property, so the bad credit I have is about to get worse for a minute. I am not concerned as I do already have a mortgage with a locked in rate and have a working vehicle as well, so there it is. Praying nothing goes terribly wrong in the next three years or so while I work this program! Anyway, a few months ago, NG ran into an issue with work. The guy he worked with was keeping all the work for himself so there were weeks when NG had no work (and no pay). He was short a little to pay some bills, so I lent it to him. Time went on and he didn't mention it. I had to travel a couple weeks ago for work and thought about asking for it back, but something just didn't feel right, so I didn't. The day before I was due to leave, he called me (very rare because usually we text about plans). He was in a panic about the rent and asked if I could help, even though he already owed me, because they were going to get kicked out; he lives with his youngest daughter (early 20s) and she hadn't given him the notice (needless to say, I wanted to say something about that, but didn't). He had started a new job, but with the way they hold back a week and them not paying except every two weeks, the timing was crazy. I told him I would see what I could do. In the end, I was able to help but I would be traveling and needed a way to get the money to him. Without hesitation, he gave me his bank information -- we use the same bank, just different branches -- so I could do a transfer. I have copies of his driver's license and social security card from when he was doing a job application last year; when he got this new job, he couldn't find his social security card and texted me from the office to see if I still had a copy. I did and sent him the picture of it. A week ago or so, he made a comment about owing me, so I know it's on his mind. Before all this bumpy road, we never talked money much unless it was about us going somewhere. If it was an in-between week for me, I would say I was willing to cook at home because my pockets were kind of thin. He would do the same. We have a joke about it, actually. There have been times when we've gone out even when we were both sort of on the low side and he'd pay for dinner and say 'you got that?' if we were going to the movies too, meaning was I able to pay for the movie tickets. I often think about the scripture that basically suggests that if you can't give, don't lend. I remember when I was going through something last year and couldn't get some medical tests done because I don't have traditional insurance. He asked how much it was going to cost and I told him I didn't know because if they found something I wouldn't be able to pay for it anyway. I think he was going to offer, but I wasn't trying to go there because of the potential future costs. I believe if I was in a situation, he would help me, but -- and back to the asking for help thing -- I try not to. I have been quite independent and want to be more so. I am trying to get into a better financial state because if this relationship does go forward and say we were to get to a point of talking about sharing space, I want to be clear that I can hold my own better than I do now. It's not easy, Needy. I'm spitting at 50 as well and like my play-little brother says, dating is so junior high. Bottom line, I don't often offer to pay for stuff when we are out ... it just happens organically. NG is clear to say when he doesn't have any extra cash at the moment to go out and I do the same. Either he or I will cook at home in those cases. If you all are going somewhere, if I were you, I'd have some money tucked in my pocket and see what happens. If your NG says he can't, decide whether it's worth going or whether it's just easier for you to get the food. You've known his financial situation and it's up to you how you feel about it. If you all need to talk, do it soon. The 'experts' say that money is one of the main reasons relationships get weird or end. Is your connection to him worth it? Only you know. {{{hugs!}}}

Yay! So happy for you all!!!!!!!

Trying -- congratulations on your upcoming nuptials! As far as the ex is concerned, you have certainly taken the higher road. But as others have suggested, you and your husband to be cannot dictate how anyone else will act or react. She is feeling some type of way about him moving on; I suspect she is without a partner? I only jumped there because of what I dealt with in my early (and even later) years with my LH's ex. They had been separated from the time their daughter was about 3 or 4; I met him when she was about 13 or 14. The ex started lots of the same shenanigans about when daughter could come over, didn't want her around me, etc etc. He put the squash on that, reminding her that 1) he didn't meddle in who she was dating unless it directly affected his daughter (mind you, while they were still considered married, before the separation, she got pregnant and had a baby by another man. While in hospital they had to call LH to ask if the baby could have his last name since she was legally married, the father of the child was nowhere to be found -- and never paid a lick of support and she never went after him -- and because she was still legally married the baby couldn't have her maiden name) and 2) who he was with was none of her concern. She would take him to court about support, even after we were married and he had been retired due to his medical condition. She actually stood up in court one day to say she didn't believe he was that sick. The arbitrator told her off. Mind you, I had taken the stance you did: try to be civil. With LH's permission, I communicated with the child support representative; she would call or write to me instead of him because I was a step removed from the situation and she had discovered how dysfunctional the ex was. I didn't invite conversation with the ex but I never kept her from coming to the house -- I wanted her to see me and to know that I was Mom and Wife in my house, even when her daughter was there. After I bought a house and we moved, she ramped up again. However, the house was solely my property and we were not married yet, so she had nothing to say. When their divorce was finalized, I had a ring on my finger in about a week (we had been together for about four years by then). She flipped out. She finally realized that nothing she did -- and trust me when I say she tried everything, from the going to court to actually trying to flirt with him -- was going to change what we had or the lack that she had. She used to say all sorts of negative things about him to their daughter, who at about 32 years old now is still scarred. After LH died, the ex would get on the phone when the daughter called me to tell me she was there for me if I ever wanted to talk and that she loved me Moral of the story is, stand your ground. As some have said here, sit down and create a plan with your beloved so you both are on the same page to deal with what she's doing now and what she will do. Chances are he won't be able to stop her from saying horrid things to the children about the both of you. When he does get time with them, he will need to spend it, telling them how much you both love them and SHOWING them that what they are hearing from Mom is complete hogwash. Actions speak louder, even for little people. It takes time but most kids want to understand for themselves. My NG's oldest daughter is estranged from him because he was never given the chance to speak that love into her life. However, his youngest stepped out from the madness their mom created and wanted to know him for herself and they share a place now. She tells her older sister, when she sees her, what is really going on. His youngest has told him that her sister is f*'ed up in the head and doesn't want to hear the truth; even she has started staying away from her. Unfortunately that happens as well and you need to be ready for it. Together, you and your beloved can build a life that all your children will want to be part of. Have a beautiful wedding, which of course won't be the same if his children can't come. If that happens, film it. Show them when they do come round. Be the lovely person you are. Keep being that with and in front of all the children. Love your husband. It may be tough for many years or it may peter out like a storm. No matter which, weather it. Together. {{{hugs}}}

Glad all is well with you and yours, trying2. I've been under deadline for work and decided to do a debt consolidation to get these two broken vehicles off my property and largely off my monthly expenses. I also traveled for work. In the meantime, NG has been getting overtime at his new gig, which is good for him; he likes his co-workers and as a team lead feels validated for his skills, which are strong. I don't just say that because I like him but because as someone with tech skills herself, I see it. Anyway, we are finally on the books to have him meet my son this Sunday. I have been pondering the horrors of what this young man might say -- as I've mentioned he is on the autism spectrum but more importantly, he has no filter. If he meets someone I am friendly with, he assumes he is friendly with them too and will say anything. I am happy but nervous just the same. it will certainly mark a leveling up as far as I am concerned, that NG has been interested. I made the suggestion a couple months ago and we weren't able to make it happen then; he brought it up again first, which I appreciated, and when I asked if this weekend would work, he was all in. Hoping everyone else is doing well and I will pop in to update you after Sunday. Know in the meantime, I have the playbook of conversations, responses, and scenarios running in my head! :-[ ;D

Yay, klim! I hear you about the no or little in between. With patience and persistence we will get there!

Thanks for sharing, tybec. You are right -- nothing is set in stone in this process. NG and I are just about at the 1.4 year mark since we started dating but I can't imagine having a move-in conversation just because of life circumstances. I own my home and he is renting with his youngest daughter to help her save expenses while she is still in school. I think they have a set lease time frame so such a conversation is not even on the radar. Plus, I would want to be in a slightly better situation myself before considering such a thing for logistical reasons. I have a two vehicles that do not run -- the sedan in the garage and the SUV in the driveway. I can't get rid of them because I don't hold title. If I could get rid of them both, I'd be all for it because he has a motorcycle and a work truck. Heck, even with just the SUV gone for now, it would clear the driveway for his little work truck and the bike. But I am not ready to have a discussion on how much I owe for them both Life choices to survive are not always the best ... the loan on the sedan is big and I have a title loan on the truck. Oh, well. Who knows what the future will bring?

That is an interesting statistic, tybec -- do they mean the couple is involved for about 4 years, then get to the point of considering moving in and marriage about 3-4 months prior to doing so? I find the whole 4 years thing interesting for sure, since when I tell people that my NG and I are at about 1 year, 4 months since our first date, they raise their eyebrows and start asking about the future. I tell them that I am hopeful that we will continue to grow closer but with the way relationships develop these days, I try not to think too far ahead

Thanks, klim. I think I struggle with the same thing many here have mentioned and that is being the one to make the suggestions. I want things to stay fresh, not drop into a too-familiar pattern, you know? I felt like I had done enough for a minute So here's what ended up happening: I went on with my day's work and heard my Facebook Messenger go off. I looked and it was him -- he's never hit me up on IM but always texts. I open it and in the message he's let me know his phone is down. I message back and ask him what he's up to. He says something like, 'Not much, just some laundry.' So I get it, but I'm not going to make it too simple: I reply with something like, 'So, whatcha cooking? Since I was gone for a week, haven't thawed anything.' He comes back and says he hadn't thawed anything either but he'd look. He then says 'I'm thawing steaks -- come on over!!' He's a great cook so I was thrilled that he was on the stove instead of me for a change. We ate, talked, and watched movies until about 8:30/9, which is time for both of us to go to bed to get ready for work. I asked what happened to his phone since he it was on and I heard his traffic alert -- he was using it on wifi because he had to wait until payday to pay the bill. As we are walking to my car, he asked me when I had gotten home; I say Friday and that I'd sent him a text. He says, 'Oh, well, I will get that text on this coming Friday!' and we laugh about it. In the end, I would have frustrated myself if I'd texted and not gotten an answer a second time by Sunday, so it all worked out. However, it's been a little while since we've had extended cuddle time. I get it -- I traveled, he had the job change and associated stressors. But know that when I sent a 'thank you' Facebook Messenger message last night after I got home, I hinted that if it hadn't been a work night I would have given a proper thank you ;D ;D We'll see what sort of response I get the next time we talk or see each other. Have a good week, all! As my dear friend says, let the junior high moments of dating continue!

Mizpah: your post made me smile for many reasons. First, I am super happy for you, that your relationship has evidenced these deep levels of commitment. Second, your last post reminds me of a conversation I had with my mother not too long ago. I was talking about a dear friend and her beloved -- I said something like, 'I guess they are common law married since they've been together for about 25 years or so.' My mom -- who previously was mortified that I'd lived with both my husbands before marriage -- replied quickly and calmly: 'Nobody gets married anymore.' This, from a woman who has her own house and her beloved has his own house; when they are together, they are and when he irritates her or vice versa, they go to their own places. Time has mellowed her as she came to the understanding as you so aptly put it that commitment is what it is. A piece of paper does not make it. Standing up in front of other people, saying some words doesn't make it. Like we heard at service this morning: we have to live out our commitments and convictions. Hope to get somewhere similar one day with my NG! {{{hugs}}}

Glad you had a talk, tybec, and that you are in a good place!

Hello all: hoping you all and your NGs and families are well. My drive to my teaching assignment (all ~650 miles round trip of it) was quite cathartic. It's the farthest I've driven by myself in a long time and the last time I went that way, my LH and son were with me and I was a passenger. To traverse those roads, to see the places we stopped along the way, to realize I can do this life on my own in all ways with God's help and leading, was wonderful. I sang along to satellite radio all the way there and back, and laughed at how filthy my car is as it sits in my driveway. I texted NG to let him know I'd made it back but saw that he'd worked a killer week (50 hours plus another 25 hours of driving), so I haven't heard from him. I have been fighting the urge to text today and have determined that I won't. Pray for me because I want to see him, but don't want to be the one to act like I have nothing better to do here than ask :-[ I have plenty of work on deck, so that certainly isn't the case. But I would leave a bit more until tomorrow if the opportunity came to spend time with him :-\ ???

Glad things are good for you and great question, Trying (and thank you, klim!). I guess I've always been one of those 'I will do it myself' sort of people, particularly after the whole first marriage. An abusive spouse teaches resilience, at least in my case. However, as an only child whose parents did not coddle, I guess I was resilient before him. Anyway, my second husband was ill and as a caregiver, I did most everything, particularly that last year. Before that and when he retired due to his health, much of the 'heavy lifting' went to me. We didn't have help from family before then so I didn't expect it after. I am thankful that not many of his folks have been in the picture (my family is small and have never been close to me, beyond my mother) since now that I am moving on with NG, I don't want to hear anything about how I am living my life. As far as asking NG for help, I don't do it often. I ask his opinions or I announce I am going to do something and he will provide feedback. He sneaks in the offer sometimes though. I am not at home right now as I have an on-ground teaching assignment this week. He was so sweet this past weekend; he actually asked me for help with something and when we talked it out, he asked me when I was leaving. I told him and he asked if he was going to see me before I left (thank God we were on the phone because I am sure I was grinning like an idiot). I went over and we had dinner and watched TV for a while before I needed to go so I could rest up before leaving. He asked me what time I was leaving and if I had someone to take me to the airport (when I went in the spring, I asked him to take me and he did); I told him I was driving this time and when I was leaving. He gave advice about where to be careful of speed traps and such. Well, the next morning when I got up and was packing the car, I see he sent me a text, telling me to have a good time and to text when I got there. :-* I think he knows I like to do things on my own, as he does, so I think it's a good balance

<3 tybec! You bring up an interesting point about in-laws. I was just going through photos for a Facebook Throwback Thursday post and have been tempted a few times to post one of LH but can't bring myself to do it. I have minimal contact with his family, primarily two cousins who count me as family, and occasionally but less frequently, his daughter. I struggle with being the one who feels like I am ghosting even though the others don't really reach out to me much. I have a bunch of hard-copy photos in my garage that I am thinking of sending in one giant bundle to the one cousin so she can share them with those who want them during the holidays. I don't know. Wish this part of moving forward wasn't so weird and difficult, which I think it is because I'd like to manage other people's reactions ... if I could make it so they were okay with my life ... and we know how impossible that is sometimes ... Sigh.

I am so sorry, Bunny. I hope you will be able to talk with him about how him holding grudges makes you feel. My NG can be the same way but it has always been about others in the past. I try to talk about how it often hurts us more to be that way because the person we're holding the grudge against has most likely gone on with their life and isn't thinking about us, so we should move on and let it go. He's not quite there yet as some of his hurts go back a long way and are deep. But I am not sure how I would react should he be that way towards me. Probably not very well

Bunny -- I love your reply! The role thing : The first husband was one of those demanding, almost caveman types when it came to roles. Women's place and all that garbage. My second husband was the total opposite: could cook like a dream, which had caused difficulty in his first marriage (his ex, once she realized he could cook, didn't; for me, it made me nervous that whatever I cooked would not be good enough, but he was a great partner and I have, thanks to his encouragement over the years, become very comfy in the kitchen), and had no problems taking care of the house when I worked outside the home full-time (he had been retired for health by then). I honestly didn't become domestic until he died. I mean, I cleaned and all that, but the true pride in my home didn't blossom until I was in here all by myself. Sad perhaps but true. I think about it now and in a way it goes back to something in an earlier discussion about getting comfy and losing the desire to work for the romance. While cleaning and cooking did not seem like aspects of romance to me before, they certainly do now. The first time NG and I had a conversation about him coming to my house, I warned him that I live in chaos theory ... I said it's clean but cluttered When he got here, he looked around and said, 'this is not cluttered!' He's always liked my cooking, even when I wasn't happy with it. Needless to say, that encouraged me to keep at it. I made cookies on Saturday and took some to his place yesterday; I had made reservations to take him out to dinner to celebrate his new job. He said he didn't think he'd ever had snickerdoodle cookies and when he bit it, he said the texture was perfect, reminded him of his mom's lemon cookies. I had to remind him we were going to dinner because he tucked in like he was going to make a meal of them. We got to the restaurant and just as we were finishing I went to the restroom. On my way back, I snagged the server and asked her to bring a slice of cake with a candle in it as a surprise. He was so shocked when she brought it. I guess it was a combination of cooking and not cooking ;D It was a good day overall. I did want to stay over, but knew he had some studying to do for a project he's been put on for this new job so I didn't pout I have to travel for work next week myself, so we'll see what next weekend holds before I go! Enjoy your Labor Day all!

trying2: I would dare say that widowhood certainly makes us more resilient but probably also gives us less tolerance for nonsense ...

Yes, thank you for sharing, daysofelijah and mw! NG is the closest to my age out of my intimate relationships. The first husband/my son's dad was about 12 years older and my second husband was 15 years older, while NG is only five years older. I guess I've finally reached an age where all my maturity points match ;D ;D ;D We will see how the weekend susses out; I have a congratulatory dinner reservation for NG and I because he started a new job this past week and I wanted to do something to celebrate the end of the stress from his last job. I didn't get to clean the house earlier in the week because I put up a small greenhouse in my backyard the other day, so that's on my agenda for today. Hope to spend time with him this weekend

Oh, tybec ... this is so hard. I wrote a blog post a week or so ago about being willing to beat Death to a pulp if I had to for my son; would I go to such extremes for NG? If we were at a commitment level of being in the same house/engaged/married? Absolutely. I have not been in a challenging situation like you have as caregiver for your parents and can't imagine how I would feel if I was and NG was unwilling to support me. I would understand if he was unable; I remember my LH's family basically ostracizing him for not attending his auntie's funeral. He was on contract to work that day and they could not understand. There are times when we can't do something but to say nothing and just go on as if it was okay is problematic ...

trying2 -- well-said about no games. Conversation, yes. If you can't discuss this sort of thing and get clear, moving forward becomes too much of a guessing game, doesn't it? {{{hugs}}}

Virgo: {{{hugs}}}

trying2 -- you made a great point there about NG being romantic at first but now, not so much. I read all sorts of relationship stuff as well and so many of the 'experts' suggest that women do this: that we start out, making sure we look appropriate when we go out on a date or even just when we are at each other's houses watching TV for a stay-in date; that we spend time with our friends who we had before connecting with this person, which sometimes means we have to raincheck him for another day or time; that we might have to raincheck him for a day or time because that is the time we spend at the gym. Then we get comfortable and stop trying. These 'experts' seem to suggest women are not keeping up what they did in the first place to attract the other person. However, as you aptly stated, in this case NG stopped keeping up some of what he did to attract you. It works on both sides here. If there isn't positive growth, however incremental, it makes sense that you, Sugarbell, any of us would question whether this is the situation we want to be in or 'fight' for. Latest increment here: I mentioned that NG was sick and we did not have the meet-up with my son. I was waiting to figure a right time to say something since NG had so much going on -- first the nerve pain, then a lack of communication and all sorts of weird stuff on the job to the point he was putting resumes out there. He had an interview and got a job offer last week so when he said that, I really didn't want to bring it up, knowing what it's like to start a new gig. He came over yesterday and we had a quiet evening of watching movies. This morning before he left, he asked when the next time might be to meet my son. I said I would have to connect with his caregiver and NG asked if my son needed to be accompanied (I already told him about the whole special needs/autism spectrum thing); I explained that no, his 'house mom' would need to drive him. He was good with that and said he would let me know about Labor Day Monday, which I figured might be a good opportunity if he didn't have to work. Also, he mentioned being ready to spend some quality time with my dogs ... now that's almost an even bigger step! My 60lb girl and by 80lb boy have met him already but they are hyper and like to jump so rather than have everybody stressed out with all that, I make sure they are in a separate room (they are totally indoor babies) and that I don't let them out unless he is outside or in a room with the door closed. So the fact that he wants to get them to be calm around him says a lot to me as well. I might be pushing for more inside my brain, but these things tell me that my 'let what happens, happen' actions are on the right track. And if anything, I try to be more open as time goes on. Like I mentioned, he's always been the 'what do you want to do' sort so I have been challenged to keep things fresh to maintain the attraction. But it's a good challenge and I think I'm up to it Have a great start to your week, everyone. All the best to each of us!

jgib -- you make a good point about how long we've been at this thing called a budding relationship We all have to take the road at our individual paces, don't we? I was just joking with the (30-yo) daughter of one of my dearest friends who moved back to the northeast last year and yesterday was talking about how she was waiting for 'her man' so they could go out. I made a comment about how it seemed sort of quick that she was laying claim to someone (and left a reminder that he is his own man, no human ownership, especially if there's no ring on it ;D). I added that it was a comment from an ol' lady as well I feel that my situation is very much still budding because if I were to line up all the days back-to-back that NG and I have spent together over the last year and several months, we would have only been dating for maybe three months. It helped me put into perspective that while we have shared a lot of ourselves with each other, it is evolving and we are learning. tybec -- I was very much young and stupid my first go round, which is probably what kept me in an abusive situation. I am grateful for my second marriage because it helped me get rid of the hard edges and come to a place where I could begin to explore the notion of romance; I don't know how LH put up with me or what he saw in me because I was VERY meat and taters. The first time I showed him my apartment, I let him in the front door, up the steps (it was a second floor unit), stood in the dining room and pointed to what rooms were where, and ushered him out the door. He asked later why I did that: I said that I agreed to 'show' him my apartment, which I did. Further, it was a first actual date and I was unsure of whether he was an ax murderer or not. We laughed about it and to hear him tell the story, of how he nearly got whiplash from how fast I got him out the door, was priceless. But he never gave up and I am grateful for his lessons because they have enabled me to get a sense of what I would like moving forward as a single woman. trying2 -- while I and my NG are meat and taters sorts, I get where you are coming from. I get caught up every now and again, describing something like a movie I watched and he just looks at me and cracks a joke about now he won't have to watch it or whatever. But when it comes to romance, I am trying to figure out what that means and what is acceptable to me. It goes back to the mirroring comment: if we can't show what is romantic, I don't think we'll get it back. I have tried the outward appearance thing: I am no supermodel (or even an average model ) so sexy undergarments or nighties are not part of my repertoire but I've found several that I think are nice and that I am comfortable in. Yes, trying2, this! I am still trying to get a handle on that myself. What it seems to boil down to is what makes you comfortable in your own skin? Can your NG handle that and does it make him want to draw closer, or does he not notice your attempts to be outwardly romantic? Do you like mushy cards at Valentine's Day or your birthday or just whenever? I tried that as well, sort of. I gave my NG a card at Valentine's and then another at his birthday with his gift; neither were especially mushy but I thought the sentiments were heartfelt. He seemed surprised at the Valentine's one and genuinely touched at the birthday one, which he read out loud, put up in his room for about a month or so (can't remember if it's still there ... now I will have to try to remember to look the next time I am there ), and said he couldn't remember the last time he'd gotten a card or gift for his birthday. Even the first husband and I would give cards for special occasions, so that really hit me. I think because he's never had anyone give those little things, he isn't sure of his desires either. We have had those (me) 'what do you want to do?'/(him) 'well what do you wanna do?' sorts of conversations more than once above different things, so as I write this, I think I just hit on something ... If our various NGs are not clear on what they want when it comes to wants and desires, and we aren't sure of exactly what we want or desire either, it will be a bit of a cloudy area, won't it? Sigh.

Thanks klim - ugh, clingy. That is a whole different animal and totally makes sense, the disconnect makes total sense. That would freak me completely out. So sorry :'(