Confessions of a widow

[Mizpah]

It is not politics to be bothered by a man saying I have lost my self-respect because I have had sex with someone with whom I wasn't in a relationship.  I realize he wasn't saying it to me, but take the logic he's setting up, and apply it, and plain and simple: it's insulting. 

 

What you're saying, serpico, and what Portside said are not the same.  I get being anti-stir, but you stated a counterpoint in an objective way, an actual concern: casual sex can damage a person psychologically.  Ok, something to think about maybe.  TOTALLY different than saying what you have to lose is your self-respect.  That's judgment and shaming. 

 

(Also, it's important to take it all in context, where the poster gave NO indication whatsoever that she was struggling with issues of whether she could respect herself if she had sex outside of a commitment/relationship.)

[serpico]

It is not politics to be bothered by a man saying I have lost my self-respect because I have had sex with someone with whom I wasn't in a relationship.  I realize he wasn't saying it to me, but take the logic he's setting up, and apply it, and plain and simple: it's insulting.

 

He wasn't saying it to anyone.  He was saying it could happen.  'What do you have to lose?' 'Your self-respect'.  He didn't say 'you tramp, I can't believe you'd think about having casual sex'.  He said you could lose your self-respect.  Does he have to add the proviso that she also 'may not' lose her self-respect?

 

What you're saying, serpico, and what Portside said are not the same.  I get being anti-stir, but you stated a counterpoint in an objective way, an actual concern: casual sex can damage a person psychologically.  Ok, something to think about maybe.  TOTALLY different than saying what you have to lose is your self-respect.  That's judgment and shaming.

 

You and I have radically different ideas about what constitutes 'judgment and shaming'. I see a lot of judgment on this thread, but it wasn't done by portside.

[hachi]

Interesting article, my take-away is that it will always be a mixed bag.

 

"If casual sexual activity doesn’t violate your moral code, your sense of integrity, or the commitments you have made to yourself and/or others, then it’s probably not going to be a problem for you in terms of your psychological wellbeing. That said, you may face related issues like STDs, unwanted pregnancy, partners who see your relationship as more than just casual, etc. And you should understand that these related factors could adversely affect your psychological wellbeing even if the sex itself does not.

 

Conversely, if you are by nature or upbringing socially and/or sexually conservative, or you have a strict religious belief system, or you tend to attach emotionally to anyone with whom you are physically intimate (regardless of whether the other person reciprocates), then casual sex may well cause you to experience shame, depression, lowered self-esteem and the like. This may be especially true if you engage in casual sex for “non-autonomous” reasons like getting drunk, seeking revenge, trying to fit in, etc"

 

For me, the part in bold caused me some issues for a while. Not shame or lowered self esteem, but more along the lines of confusion and doubt. While my relationship is committed and healthy, going into it with unclear expectations, thinking it could be casual, in the end did not work for me and caused me a lot of internal conflict until I was really ready to be in that committed relationship.

[adp]

Boy Serpico, that "study" was a very flimsy fig leaf, much too small to cover Portside's outsize patriarchy.* Of course his comments came from a place of judgement; we've seen him do it before, warning someone contemplating a similar action that all the potential partner's male friends would be running around talking about her. That's shaming right there (of course, the male of the species never loses self-respect but only gains bragging rights). This isn't about women's behaviour; the problem is men's behaviour, men telling women how they should behave and how they should feel about it.

 

(* The article you linked to in no way provided meaningful support for the point you were trying to make).

[Mrs Reader]

What a conersation! Thank you, there were so many points to my question that it really made me think what is it that I am after.

But what Arneal said makes so much sense:

 

Mutual makes it better, no matter the 'when'.

 

What was I thinking! It is not about ME. And not about when.

And while realizing this I suddenly got a message from another much nicer sounding guy and completely forgot the previous one. Which kind of answers my own question.

I will go for it when the moment and the person is right. But I won't try to force it happen to make my solitude go away.

Instead I am fixing a new date with the new guy, take it easy and see from there.

 

Oh, and I am certainly free from any judgement from anyone, I'll bloody do my best with this life I was thrown to. May it include some dirty dancing with clean guys 

[BrokenHeart2]

Hey Mrs. Reader,

I came across an article and thought of your post from the other day.  I came on here and saw that the thread took a serious spin for a bit so on a lighter note, if it happens, statistically you picked a good month!! LOL.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/06/05/june-one-night-stand_n_16957250.html

 

Good luck on whatever you decide to do!!

Hugs

[serpico]

This isn't about women's behaviour; the problem is men's behaviour, men telling women how they should behave and how they should feel about it.

 

Perhaps we can set up a separate sub-forum here where us patriarchal dudes (don't worry, I'm sure you're not one of them) can submit our posts to see if they will give offense.

[Mrs Reader]

BH2, that means I only have three weeks to go!

And I just changed my object and started from scratch  ;D

 

[adp]

This isn't about women's behaviour; the problem is men's behaviour, men telling women how they should behave and how they should feel about it.

 

Perhaps we can set up a separate sub-forum here where us patriarchal dudes (don't worry, I'm sure you're not one of them) can submit our posts to see if they will give offense.

 

That would be one way of owning it.

[Bunny]

This isn't about women's behaviour; the problem is men's behaviour, men telling women how they should behave and how they should feel about it.

 

Perhaps we can set up a separate sub-forum here where us patriarchal dudes (don't worry, I'm sure you're not one of them) can submit our posts to see if they will give offense.

 

Please stop trying to make this into some kinda politically (in)correct issue when it's really not.This is not a religious site and 'confessions of a widow' is known to be a thread where people are free to share thoughts that are less than pure without having to fear any of the judgments they might get irl.

 

I've watched portside shame 3 people right off this board- people not nearly as far along in this journey as he, so most probably in need of it more than he appears to be. So yeah- I do wish he'd cut it out with the judgmental bullshit he keeps handing to people. The whole purpose of his comments is to try and make people feel ashamed of their feelings. If they want that, they can visit a house of worship instead. This is a widow board full of raw feelings people should feel safe sharing while they're trying to sort their shit out.

 

 

 

 

[MrsDan]

 

What you're saying, serpico, and what Portside said are not the same.  I get being anti-stir, but you stated a counterpoint in an objective way, an actual concern: casual sex can damage a person psychologically.  Ok, something to think about maybe.  TOTALLY different than saying what you have to lose is your self-respect.  That's judgment and shaming. 

 

 

An important distinction. I had sex sooner than i'd planned too, and in retrospect that could have ended badly for me. Not because of my health (you know, condoms) or my self respect. But the fact is I did develop feelings I didn't anticipate, and had they not been reciprocated, yeah, it would have been emotionally difficult. But that's not the same as shame.

[arneal]

Great point, MrsDan!

 

And can I add that loss of self-respect doesn't have to involve anything close to sex. So my first foray into the online dating scene, I 'meet' this guy who was charming and all that. We had good conversations. He supposedly lived in Florida and invited me to come visit. He would try to get me on video but when he did, he wouldn't have his camera on. He would send me these nondescript photos of himself, selfies at what was supposed (I guess) to be his house, in the car, a photo taken by someone at a meeting. He asked me to send photos as well. He once asked for photos that were a bit more risque than I would ever take. I took one of me, sitting on the side of my bed, wrapped in the sheets and nothing else. You could only see my shoulders and maybe a bit of cleavage, legs, nothing X-rated. But it's not something I would ordinarily do. Found out later he was a troll and yeah, I felt my self-respect had been dented. But it certainly wasn't the end of my universe and I moved on.

 

Any time we do something that's out of our norm, that's maybe a bit over the top, we can lose self-respect. It's more about the head space you're in when whatever it is happens, rather than what is going on in that space. Having sex with someone, wearing something that feels too revealing, drinking a bit too much or drinking something harder than usual or drinking if you don't drink at all, taking weird selfies. It matters not -- any of these could make a person feel like their self-respect has been compromised in some way. And it's not anyone else's place to say that's what the act will result in. Or not.

[arneal]

Ordinary, every day sort of confession: I miss having and being a help-mate. Someone to take the garbage cans down to the curb instead of me. Someone to flip a coin with to see who's going to clean the cat box (added confession: there are times when I don't clean them. I have one cat and two boxes. He lives in the garage because he doesn't want to share space with the dogs. And I go out there every day but some days I just don't want to do it. I grow weary of doing it by myself; it became my sole chore after my son moved out and my LH got too sick to do much of anything before he died). Someone else to cook dinner for. Someone to welcome home from work (I work at home).

[Love2fish]

Any time we do something that's out of our norm, that's maybe a bit over the top, we can lose self-respect.

 

This. 

 

Summed up the last couples pages of this thread in the fewest words possible.

[Guest TooSoon]

Any time we do something that's out of our norm, that's maybe a bit over the top, we can lose self-respect.

 

This. 

 

Summed up the last couples pages of this thread in the fewest words possible.

 

Far from losing your self respect, you learned something about your limits.  We are often forced, as widows who have been in marriages sometimes since high school, to navigate a whole new universe of choices and dynamics.  I believe one must test the waters, take some risks, and then learn from them to grow and evolve.  Maybe that's not for everyone but for some I think it can be key and transformative and has absolutely nothing to do with self-respect.  A woman (or, indeed, a man) is a conscious being and "losing self-respect" doesn't even need to figure into it.  You made a choice, it didn't work for you, you learned from it and you moved on.  That's the beginning and the end of it.  No moralizing or guilt is necessary or productive in my opinion.  And don't let anyone tell you otherwise. 

[serpico]

And don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

 

Interesting way to sum up your post, given that you spent most of it telling arneal otherwise, lol.

 

She said 'we can lose self-respect'... how about we take her at her word?  She didn't say 'we/you will', 'we/you should', or even 'TooSoon will/should'.  She spoke her view, which is just as valid as anyone else's.  How about we leave her word stand?

 

[arneal]

Very good point, TooSoon. I feel like I have made choices in life, particularly after being widowed the first time that made me feel like I'd lost a few respect points for myself (self-respect). I got over it, but it's like self-esteem, right? How we view ourselves during the learning process. I have made choices that others might not agree with since being widowed a second time but they were choices that were in my best interest and increased the respect points I had for myself. It is a journey for sure

[Guest TooSoon]

And don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

 

Interesting way to sum up your post, given that you spent most of it telling arneal otherwise, lol.

 

She said 'we can lose self-respect'... how about we take her at her word?  She didn't say 'we/you will', 'we/you should', or even 'TooSoon will/should'.  She spoke her view, which is just as valid as anyone else's.  How about we leave her word stand?

 

I mean, don't let anyone tell you how to choose, think, process, progress, develop, evolve.  Do what you need to to; learn from it.  Mistakes are not always mistakes if you learn from them. 

 

Listen, serpico, you've been responding to me like this for years.  Let's just agree to disagree.  Maybe you men who know how we women should act/feel/behave really should  have your own page. 

 

And I was actually validating the OP in her choices and feelings. Which you will probably take issue with because you think all we do is tell each other every thing everyone here does is ok, right?  Isn't that your historic line of reasoning?  I, for one, need help and reinforcement sometimes.  I need to falter and learn from my mistakes and pick myself up and keep going.  I'm glad you and portside have all of the answers but your need to criticize everything I write says more about you than it does about me.  I think you need to chill.  I've gotten a bit off topic but I am sick and tired of you (and portside) trying to undermine the conversation with your judgments.  A differing viewpoint is one thing and welcome - but your delivery and selected responses tell me you want the argument more than the discussion.

 

 

 

 

[Love2fish]

I hear what you are saying TooSoon,

 

"No moralizing or guilt is necessary or productive"

 

Most of the time that is true.  I have learned a lot about my limits as you so aptly put it.  I have been hurt,  i expected that and won't complain.  Finding what I am looking for is tough!

 

Unfortunately, I have also made some errors that hurt very nice ladies.  Those are the times that I lost some "self respect".  I never set out to hurt anyone.  I was just testing the limits.  Now I feel badly about how obtuse I was to the feelings of some very wonderful women.

 

I have had the experience of true and complete forgiveness. DW did that for me.  I hope I can earn it once more time.  I don't think there is any guarantee about that.

 

 

[66etype]

I'm just over 5 years out from DH death. I grieved hard for 2 years, spent 2 more years being lonely and working on myself physically (losing weight and working out at the gym), then going into the 5th year I met a young man, 20 years my junior. He wants autonomy in his life, yet we have a committed sexual relationship. My internal rules made this relationship hard in the beginning and then I realized I want the same autonomy in my life he wants. I like being able to come and go, do what I want and not checking in with anyone. We text during the week just to say hi and have a great day.

I put a lot of pressure on myself to be in a relationship, then I realized I don't want one yet. I'm enjoying this time in my life. I'm no longer grieving and I consider myself single... really single for the 1st time in my 53 years of life. When I want to settle down this young man door will shut and the long term relationship door will open.

We have traveled to central america together and it was so fun. I am having the hottest, sexiest and most naughty sex I've ever had in my life and I love it!! I don't care what anyone thinks... I just don't. Go out and enjoy it all. I told my kids (who aren't much younger than him) that when I die, I want them to tell stories and memories of what I did in my life. The stories post DH death are much more fun!! The best advice I've gotten is from my oldest son... he said "go do you mom, go do you. You've raised us to be responsible adults, suffered and grieved enough".. that kid is a blessing! Go out and do you!!

[BrokenHeart2]

66, I want to live your life!!! Since I'm only at 4 yrs.....hey, you just never know  

Wow, sounds like you raised some terrific kids!!  "Go do you Mom"  I love it!!

[arneal]

Thanks, 66 -- I so needed to read your post today. It brought tears, but they were happy ones. I am so tired of feeling like people are feeling sorry for me because I've been widowed twice in my 48 years of life or thinking that I'm 'the widow', sitting around grieving. I stopped grieving early, having started before LH died because he'd been so sick that last year. The doctors were not sure he'd live when he ended up in ICU in spring 2015 and that's when the grief started for me. It lasted through his coming out of that and me becoming his caregiver. About two weeks ago I realized I was tired of being 'the widow' and started ticking the 'single' box on forms (I tick 'prefer not to answer' when it says 'single/never married') and removed my relationship status from social media. I have someone in my life now who is only five years older than me (both my husbands were older than me, the first by about 12 years who died at 42 and the second at about 15 years who died at 62) and like you, I am having the time of my life. I hope that we continue to grow closer as I wouldn't mind being married again or living with someone.

[Virgo]

This Thursday will be 4 weeks since I've been on a date. I have to say that I'm enjoying my break. I thought I would be craving the physical contact, I normally do, but I'm not. I've been so underwhelmed by the men who contact me it makes it easy not to be tempted. I'm open to dating, don't get me wrong, but I want something more. Not sure what that looks like for me, but a step foward.

[Mizpah]

Go out and enjoy it all.

 

Yes yes yes yes!  Just reading this made me feel a little secondhand-high on freedom and joy in life.  It is true bravery to shed our preconceptions of ourselves, and the handed-down judgments of others.  Go you!  Yay!

[66etype]

Our people did not die in vain... go out and fucking enjoy it all in there name...and ours! We are still here and they are not. Celebrate them everyday.. even if it wasn't something they would understand. Who cares? They are gone and we are still fucking here.. live it people!! Live it!